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There is this famous Buddha quote that I heard already reference made to on several occasions Believe nothing, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
Now, when I apply this to the common internet search algorithm, results very from "the Buddha never said that" to "it's a bad translation that contradicts the message of the sutta in the sense that reason and common sense are not sufficient for ascertaining the truth"
So is it me stupid or the interpreters and the search algorithm?
Its a loaded and poor translation taken out of its context. Its context was an address by Shakyamuni Buddha to a group of people who were not his students.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Both answers are sort-of-true. The Buddha didn't say exactly that, but he did say something quite similar. However, that quote by itself misrepresents what the Buddha actually said because you need the context.
As one translator puts it, "One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise."
It would be good for you to read the whole sutra - it isn't very long and it's here - https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:40 pm
Its from the Kalama Sutta, but usually gets decontextualized and used to advocate a form of skepticism which is unhealthy Dharma - wise.
It is not even in the Kalama Sutta at all. It is a bogus citation.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:40 pm
Its from the Kalama Sutta, but usually gets decontextualized and used to advocate a form of skepticism which is unhealthy Dharma - wise.
It is not even in the Kalama Sutta at all. It is a bogus citation.
I remember reading the exact thing, or something extremely close in the Kalama Sutta, prior to even having access to much commentary (pre internet days) ...so if it is a bad quote, then I am pretty sure there are 'bad' versions of the Sutta floating around. By memory, I think it was A Buddhist Bible by Goddard that I read it in, but not positive. Hell, you could incorrectly extract the same idea from the access to insight version above.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:40 pm
Its from the Kalama Sutta, but usually gets decontextualized and used to advocate a form of skepticism which is unhealthy Dharma - wise.
It is not even in the Kalama Sutta at all. It is a bogus citation.
I remember reading the exact thing, or something extremely close in the Kalama Sutta, prior to even having access to much commentary (pre internet days) ...so if it is a bad quote, then I am pretty sure there are 'bad' versions of the Sutta floating around. By memory, I think it was A Buddhist Bible by Goddard that I read it in, but not positive. Hell, you could incorrectly extract the same idea from the access to insight version above.
It is a bogus citation. The Buddha never said anything remotely similar to "Believe nothing, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
If he did, he would be contradicting himself:
"Excellent, Sariputta. Excellent. Those who have not known, seen, penetrated, realized, or attained it by means of discernment would have to take it on conviction in others that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation; whereas those who have known, seen, penetrated, realized, & attained it by means of discernment would have no doubt or uncertainty that the faculty of conviction... persistence... mindfulness... concentration... discernment, when developed & pursued, gains a footing in the Deathless, has the Deathless as its goal & consummation."
What are you arguing with me about? If you believe its a gloss on the actual wording of the sutta..great, makes sense, I believe you.
All I am saying is that it is easy to misinterpret the actual sutta that way, including the version mentioned above, and that I am pretty sure I've seen 'versions' (quality not withstanding) that use wording very close to this.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:01 pm
Ok turn off your translator brain fir a sec
What are you arguing with me about? If you believe its a gloss on the actual wording of the sutta..great, makes sense, I believe you.
I am saying that the "citation" in question is totally bogus, false, fake, a forgery, and that Buddha never said anything remotely like it. I don't consider it a gloss at all.
Johnny Dangerous wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:01 pm
Ok turn off your translator brain fir a sec
What are you arguing with me about? If you believe its a gloss on the actual wording of the sutta..great, makes sense, I believe you.
I am saying that the "citation" in question is totally bogus, false, fake, a forgery, and that Buddha never said anything remotely like it. I don't consider it a gloss at all.
You can pull very similar, decontextualized quotes from the access to insight version.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
weitsicht wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:21 pm
There is this famous Buddha quote that I heard already reference made to on several occasions Believe nothing, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
Now, when I apply this to the common internet search algorithm, results very from "the Buddha never said that" to "it's a bad translation that contradicts the message of the sutta in the sense that reason and common sense are not sufficient for ascertaining the truth"
So is it me stupid or the interpreters and the search algorithm?
Thanks! W
So, weitsicht How are you doing? Is the debate useful to you?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
It's a paraphrase, although not necessarily a very good one from the Theravada Pali Canon, Kalama Sutta; one translation of the main part from Ven. Soma:
"Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,' enter on and abide in them.
Anonymous X wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:03 am
How can you talk/discuss about something that was never said? Is Malcolm the only one who gets it?
As I said, it's a bad paraphrase, but it appears to be based off of the Kalama Sutta, which is a discourse of the Buddha, from Pali Canon. There is a Mahayana Sutra equivalent:
Translator's note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu to AN 3.65 which should be of interest to everyone:
Although this discourse is often cited as the Buddha's carte blanche for following one's own sense of right and wrong, it actually says something much more rigorous than that. Traditions are not to be followed simply because they are traditions. Reports (such as historical accounts or news) are not to be followed simply because the source seems reliable. One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise. The ability to question and test one's beliefs in an appropriate way is called appropriate attention. The ability to recognize and choose wise people as mentors is called having admirable friends.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
Anonymous X wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:03 am
How can you talk/discuss about something that was never said? Is Malcolm the only one who gets it?
As I said, it's a bad paraphrase, but it appears to be based off of the Kalama Sutta, which is a discourse of the Buddha, from Pali Canon. There is a Mahayana Sutra equivalent:
I get that it is not a direct translation of anything, I'm just not sure why thats an issue of focus. Someone can easily make the same mistake with the actual text, by cherry picking it, and they do.
But you're right, upon revisiting it I realize it is not what I read, even in a bad translation.. I concede there is no way it could be an actual quote.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:15 am
Translator's note by Thanissaro Bhikkhu to AN 3.65 which should be of interest to everyone:
Although this discourse is often cited as the Buddha's carte blanche for following one's own sense of right and wrong, it actually says something much more rigorous than that. Traditions are not to be followed simply because they are traditions. Reports (such as historical accounts or news) are not to be followed simply because the source seems reliable. One's own preferences are not to be followed simply because they seem logical or resonate with one's feelings. Instead, any view or belief must be tested by the results it yields when put into practice; and — to guard against the possibility of any bias or limitations in one's understanding of those results — they must further be checked against the experience of people who are wise. The ability to question and test one's beliefs in an appropriate way is called appropriate attention. The ability to recognize and choose wise people as mentors is called having admirable friends.
weitsicht wrote: ↑Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:21 pm
There is this famous Buddha quote that I heard already reference made to on several occasions Believe nothing, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense
Now, when I apply this to the common internet search algorithm, results very from "the Buddha never said that" to "it's a bad translation that contradicts the message of the sutta in the sense that reason and common sense are not sufficient for ascertaining the truth"
So is it me stupid or the interpreters and the search algorithm?
Thanks! W
So, weitsicht How are you doing? Is the debate useful to you?
Bump.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
