types of arharts and disciples

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Fortyeightvows
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types of arharts and disciples

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:26 am

We all know the fourfold division:
Stream enterer
Once returner
Non Returner
Arhart

But there is also a sevenfold list presented in this sutra https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html which is summarized here: https://www.budsas.org/ebud/jhanas/jhanas06.htm

1. the faith-devotee (saddhanusari),
2. the one liberated by faith (saddhavimutta),
3. the body-witness (kayasakkhi),
4. the one liberated in both ways (ubhatobhagavimutta),
5. the truth-devotee ( dhammanusari),
6. the one attained to understanding (ditthipatta), and
7. the one liberated by wisdom (pannavimutta).

The summary says: "The seven types may be divided into three general groups, each defined by the predominance of a particular spiritual faculty" but what I wonder is if these 7 category correspond to the usual four category, stream enterer and so on?

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SunWuKong
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Re: types of arharts and disciples

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:32 am

Mostly it’s different types of arhants, those which do and do not possess the “higher” jhanas
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

Fortyeightvows
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Re: types of arharts and disciples

Post by Fortyeightvows » Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:12 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:32 am
Mostly it’s different types of arhants, those which do and do not possess the “higher” jhanas
I get that but is the attainment of those jhanas correspond to the stream enterer, once returner, etc?

ItsRaining
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Re: types of arharts and disciples

Post by ItsRaining » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:30 pm

IRC there are different ways to attain arhatship and these types derive from how they attained arhatship. For example, those Liberated by wisdom have not attained high jhanas (Or any in something I read), and also practicing the 9 impure contemplations at the last visualisation some arhats just visualise white bones and others have to visualise the bones burning away or something and that also separates their type.

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SunWuKong
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Re: types of arharts and disciples

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:12 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:32 am
Mostly it’s different types of arhants, those which do and do not possess the “higher” jhanas
I get that but is the attainment of those jhanas correspond to the stream enterer, once returner, etc?
Oh i see, mmm... those are called "Stages of Enlightenment" - - a system that the Diamond Sutra disparages, the "levels" of jhanas correspond to which fetters, defilements, are loosed. So, start losing fetters, getting jhanas, then Stages of Enlightenment. Mahayana retains the description of fetters, which ones are loosed, but gives the jhanas and Stages of Enlightenment little coverage. Thats because, if the jhanas are really doin what they do, there is no self to experience the status as described. Some of the "higher jhanas" aren't really necessary for becoming an arhant. I'm not the expert, but theres not a single source that coordinates both Theraveda and Mahayana systems that i know of. Wikipedia's entry for "Dhyana" is useful, the chart if from Thanisarro Bhikku. The other problem encountered is that Tantric Buddhism began in the "Hinayana" era and continued into the Mahayana, so for some early Buddhists theres that part of it too. Good luck with all this.
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

Sentient Light
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Re: types of arharts and disciples

Post by Sentient Light » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:58 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 am
Mahayana retains the description of fetters, which ones are loosed, but gives the jhanas and Stages of Enlightenment little coverage.
We don't address the stages of enlightenment much (except in passing) because those are stages toward arahantship. Typically, those four groups are just lumped together as part of the sravakayana, but you'll notice descriptions of certain Pure Lands where all four stages are mentioned as beings born there, in addition to the 10 stages of bodhisattvas.

As for the dhyanas, they're actually covered in the Tiantai meditation manuals. They became less important after the one-practice samadhi came into popularity, which did away with the need for the four form dhyana-samadhis as a road map, but if you read Zhiyi's meditation manuals, it's all still there, and considered more or less an "alternate route" to samadhi.
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SunWuKong
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Re: types of arharts and disciples

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:06 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:58 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:59 am
Mahayana retains the description of fetters, which ones are loosed, but gives the jhanas and Stages of Enlightenment little coverage.
We don't address the stages of enlightenment much (except in passing) because those are stages toward arahantship. Typically, those four groups are just lumped together as part of the sravakayana, but you'll notice descriptions of certain Pure Lands where all four stages are mentioned as beings born there, in addition to the 10 stages of bodhisattvas.



As for the dhyanas, they're actually covered in the Tiantai meditation manuals. They became less important after the one-practice samadhi came into popularity, which did away with the need for the four form dhyana-samadhis as a road map, but if you read Zhiyi's meditation manuals, it's all still there, and considered more or less an "alternate route" to samadhi.
Right - in Mahāyāna you have Stages if Enlightenment called the Ten Bhumi - which is not specifically correlated with these
"Cast off body and mind" (身心脱落 shēn xīn tuō luò)

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