Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

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MatthewAngby
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Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm

There is a lama norlha Puja on 10 Feb, so I wanted to introduce this Puja to my Father’s Friend - because apparently I ttjink he wanted some wealth. An idea struck me - “Hooking” him to Buddhism using this Puja - he gets the wealth and subsequently gets guided on the path of the buddhadharma. However you see, my Father , who obviously is very close minded and not really sure of TB ( I think ), says : I never seen anyone who wants to convert beings to Buddhism using wealth! You remind me of the christians who likes to convert people!

Anger arouse in me ! I was like - are u really sure buddhists don’t convert people when such circumstances are ripe ?

So my Father told me to then, pose this question on the forum.

Q1 : Is hooking people to Buddhism through wealth a good thing or a bad thing? ( extra note : I think we must use all sort of skill full means to convert beings to the dharma - don’t expect a person to eat things he don’t like, that is... don’t feed him shit or something which he obviously hates. Feed him pizza maybe ! )

Q2 : Do buddhists convert beings to the dharma? We shall consider the activity of the Buddha’s and bodhisattvas - do they convert beings to the dharma? Or do they just rest in empty space and wait for beings to come and say - oh hey, I waited for many eons and eons and eons before I finally wanted to study dharma. ( extra note : so do you think Buddha’s or bodhisattvas would convert a person who has karma to practice the Buddhadharma in the fastest way possible, or will they just wait for natural conditions for that person to practice dharma, which might take eons and eons. )

Q3 : Do you think accumulating wealth in Buddhism is bad? Like doing practice for wealth? Is it bad? Tell me if it is good, why is it good and elaborate it. Why? So I have enough facts to triumph over my father’s words.

That’s all the questions. Please, people, answer all the questions as precise as possible, I shall make sure I make thing Right. Again Grigoris, who I don’t know why I trust so much, please provide the most elaborate explanation for all my questions , thank u.

This is written when I am still very pissed with my Father over his words. So please do mind my language and tone.

I hope Each and every of you who are reading this, to reply me and not ignore this. I have grown tired of the misconceptions of TB. ( even if some of the questions here posted are not related to it. )
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

Jeff H
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:26 pm

Dear Matthew! Your enthusiasm is wonderful … and overbearing. You may have a good grasp of Buddhist principles, but I must admit it is not apparent to me from your posts. My advice would be to practice some calm breathing, relax your very adventurous mind a bit, and turn that enthusiasm inward to learn more Buddhist basics and observe your personal situation more objectively in the mirror of Dharma. That said, here’s how I respond to your questions (with the caveat that my understanding of Dharma doesn’t hold a candle to Grigoris’).

Q1: You are referring to skillful means. Under the right conditions virtually anything can be used to help those who are karmically ripe deepen their understanding and progress on the buddhadharma path. But the real question here is, are you applying skillful means, or are you over anxious to share your new found love of Buddhism? Are you a skillful bodhisattva with the wisdom to understand all the ramifications of your actions and another’s responses?

Q2: There several threads on DW where different views have been debated regarding proselytizing for Buddhism. Personally, I’m from the camp that thinks that when a person’s karma ripens, they will have the eyes to recognize the truth of Buddhist teachings and practices and be led very naturally into their own path. Indeed, you are correct that this is not the way of buddhas and bodhisattvas, but I am neither. I am a deeply ignorant ordinary being, just like the people I long to “save”. One has to straighten oneself out before they can skillfully lead others.

Q3: Wealth is not bad or good. It’s how one relates to it, how they gain it, and what they do with it that makes the difference. Again, personally, I would consider it degrading to the Dharma to use Buddhist practices for the purpose of gaining wealth. The objective is not to make more Buddhists no matter what. The objective is for those of us on the path to gain realization of the deeper meaning of suffering, the reasons it exists, the nature of the cure for suffering, and the practices that will lead ourselves and others out of suffering. It all requires profound wisdom which takes time to cultivate and apply properly.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

Motova
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Motova » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:32 pm

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=12046&p=211508&hil ... ng#p211508
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm

The very angry mood is questionable hahaha

My dad told me once "this thing yoga you do has done you very well" pointing at my own teenager anger, that made me aware "oh, maybe im doing better. That made my parents not buddhist, but at least they receive what i give to them, and they are happy. A man can't be happy if their parents aren't happy about him... strange thing, but it's like that.
Identities are false and not true

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:13 am

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:26 pm
Dear Matthew! Your enthusiasm is wonderful … and overbearing. You may have a good grasp of Buddhist principles, but I must admit it is not apparent to me from your posts. My advice would be to practice some calm breathing, relax your very adventurous mind a bit, and turn that enthusiasm inward to learn more Buddhist basics and observe your personal situation more objectively in the mirror of Dharma. That said, here’s how I respond to your questions (with the caveat that my understanding of Dharma doesn’t hold a candle to Grigoris’).

Q1: You are referring to skillful means. Under the right conditions virtually anything can be used to help those who are karmically ripe deepen their understanding and progress on the buddhadharma path. But the real question here is, are you applying skillful means, or are you over anxious to share your new found love of Buddhism? Are you a skillful bodhisattva with the wisdom to understand all the ramifications of your actions and another’s responses?

Q2: There several threads on DW where different views have been debated regarding proselytizing for Buddhism. Personally, I’m from the camp that thinks that when a person’s karma ripens, they will have the eyes to recognize the truth of Buddhist teachings and practices and be led very naturally into their own path. Indeed, you are correct that this is not the way of buddhas and bodhisattvas, but I am neither. I am a deeply ignorant ordinary being, just like the people I long to “save”. One has to straighten oneself out before they can skillfully lead others.

Q3: Wealth is not bad or good. It’s how one relates to it, how they gain it, and what they do with it that makes the difference. Again, personally, I would consider it degrading to the Dharma to use Buddhist practices for the purpose of gaining wealth. The objective is not to make more Buddhists no matter what. The objective is for those of us on the path to gain realization of the deeper meaning of suffering, the reasons it exists, the nature of the cure for suffering, and the practices that will lead ourselves and others out of suffering. It all requires profound wisdom which takes time to cultivate and apply properly.
But how is It degrading to use wealth? Afterall, my parents were a bit guided to dharma when my grandpa was sick - that was , they wanted to do life liberation for Long life. So wishing for Long life is degrading ? It is also very much concerned with this life.... just like wealth. However I do not think it is degrading to lead someone like that.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:18 am

Motova wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:32 pm
viewtopic.php?f=42&t=12046&p=211508&hil ... ng#p211508
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.
And so I assume it is possible to entice people into the dharma through wealth first, and hopefully by
Them doing more practices regarding it, they will create more virtuous Causes which might guide them more swiftly to the Buddhist path. This is my intention all along , to make them pratice more and more and let them create more and more virtuous causes and let them be guided to real dharma in the swiftest way possible.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:21 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm
The very angry mood is questionable hahaha

My dad told me once "this thing yoga you do has done you very well" pointing at my own teenager anger, that made me aware "oh, maybe im doing better. That made my parents not buddhist, but at least they receive what i give to them, and they are happy. A man can't be happy if their parents aren't happy about him... strange thing, but it's like that.
Nope. If your parents Wants you to be a serial killer , will you do it? You hate killing let’s say and have compassion for beings- but u want to make ur parents happy , so u kill beings. Tell me , do you feel happy then, doing things that you do NOT like and do not feel that it is right ... all for your parents to be happy? That for me personally ( I’m rebellious fyi ) is not right,
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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Wayfarer
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:29 am

I think first and foremost, the number one point is, dharma is practiced for the sake of dharma itself. Not for any ulterior motive, certainly not for any idea of material gain. That is a corruption of the whole purpose of the teaching in my opinion. Never mind that many people will say that one can gain material benefits through practice of dharma, but that is a worldly motive and is really nothing to do with the dharma.

Of course living as a householder there is nothing the matter with making an income or even becoming prosperous. There is an excellent book on the subject of the Buddha's teaching on worldly prosperity - The Buddha's Teachings on Prosperity: At Home, At Work, in the World, by Bhikkhu Basnagoda Rahula.

But it is a different matter to try and use Buddhist teachings to pursue material gain. Not a good motivation. Hope that is sufficiently clear.

:namaste:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:09 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:29 am
I think first and foremost, the number one point is, dharma is practiced for the sake of dharma itself. Not for any ulterior motive, certainly not for any idea of material gain. That is a corruption of the whole purpose of the teaching in my opinion. Never mind that many people will say that one can gain material benefits through practice of dharma, but that is a worldly motive and is really nothing to do with the dharma.

Of course living as a householder there is nothing the matter with making an income or even becoming prosperous. There is an excellent book on the subject of the Buddha's teaching on worldly prosperity - The Buddha's Teachings on Prosperity: At Home, At Work, in the World, by Bhikkhu Basnagoda Rahula.

But it is a different matter to try and use Buddhist teachings to pursue material gain. Not a good motivation. Hope that is sufficiently clear.

:namaste:
Well, how else do u expect someone to be guided to dharma? Take for example a child who is about to be hit by a railway train - you cannot expect the child to move to you by attracting it with fearsome beasts such as werewolf costumes etc. .. to save the child , you might need to use some sort of children toys which they like. They would keep going for the children toys ( in this case wealth ) , but in the end they are saved. Tell me, what if they do sufficient practices and finally ... the bodhisattvas can help them to progress on dharma due to their virtuous merits of practice ? So for me, I lead them through things they want , and then they would do practice to bring more positive causes and conditions which would perhaps make them progress on dharma when the time is ripe.

So don’t think that this is bad. Sometimes you have to do things in order for people to pratice and be liberated. What do you think , @wayfarer ?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:25 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:21 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm
The very angry mood is questionable hahaha

My dad told me once "this thing yoga you do has done you very well" pointing at my own teenager anger, that made me aware "oh, maybe im doing better. That made my parents not buddhist, but at least they receive what i give to them, and they are happy. A man can't be happy if their parents aren't happy about him... strange thing, but it's like that.
Nope. If your parents Wants you to be a serial killer , will you do it? You hate killing let’s say and have compassion for beings- but u want to make ur parents happy , so u kill beings. Tell me , do you feel happy then, doing things that you do NOT like and do not feel that it is right ... all for your parents to be happy? That for me personally ( I’m rebellious fyi ) is not right,
What i'm saying is that to speak motivated by hate and rejection discredits what you want to propose: tibetan buddhism.

One important thing about is this: people cannot be converted to buddhism, they convert themselves.

Buddhism is about facts hehe

Best regards pal, hope you get what you really want
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MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:27 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:25 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:21 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm
The very angry mood is questionable hahaha

My dad told me once "this thing yoga you do has done you very well" pointing at my own teenager anger, that made me aware "oh, maybe im doing better. That made my parents not buddhist, but at least they receive what i give to them, and they are happy. A man can't be happy if their parents aren't happy about him... strange thing, but it's like that.
Nope. If your parents Wants you to be a serial killer , will you do it? You hate killing let’s say and have compassion for beings- but u want to make ur parents happy , so u kill beings. Tell me , do you feel happy then, doing things that you do NOT like and do not feel that it is right ... all for your parents to be happy? That for me personally ( I’m rebellious fyi ) is not right,
What i'm saying is that to speak motivated by hate and rejection discredits what you want to propose: tibetan buddhism.

One important thing about is this: people cannot be converted to buddhism, they convert themselves.

Buddhism is about facts hehe

Best regards pal, hope you get what you really want
Of course people convert themselves. That is why I am providing a ‘condition ‘ ( if he has the karma ) to convert himself to Buddhism.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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Wayfarer
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am

An idea struck me - “Hooking” him to Buddhism using this Puja - he gets the wealth and subsequently gets guided on the path of the buddhadharma. However you see, my Father , who obviously is very close minded and not really sure of TB ( I think ), says : I never seen anyone who wants to convert beings to Buddhism using wealth! You remind me of the christians who likes to convert people!
Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:07 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am
An idea struck me - “Hooking” him to Buddhism using this Puja - he gets the wealth and subsequently gets guided on the path of the buddhadharma. However you see, my Father , who obviously is very close minded and not really sure of TB ( I think ), says : I never seen anyone who wants to convert beings to Buddhism using wealth! You remind me of the christians who likes to convert people!
Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
Wow...tell me again. Tell me then, why would u think that way? Converting beings to Buddhism is bad? Or maybe your idea of prancing for wealth is clouding ur visions?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Ayu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:18 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:07 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am
An idea struck me - “Hooking” him to Buddhism using this Puja - he gets the wealth and subsequently gets guided on the path of the buddhadharma. However you see, my Father , who obviously is very close minded and not really sure of TB ( I think ), says : I never seen anyone who wants to convert beings to Buddhism using wealth! You remind me of the christians who likes to convert people!
Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
Wow...tell me again. Tell me then, why would u think that way? Converting beings to Buddhism is bad? Or maybe your idea of prancing for wealth is clouding ur visions?
Do you like to get answers to your questions or do you want to argue only?
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:09 pm

Ayu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:18 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:07 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am


Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
Wow...tell me again. Tell me then, why would u think that way? Converting beings to Buddhism is bad? Or maybe your idea of prancing for wealth is clouding ur visions?
Do you like to get answers to your questions or do you want to argue only?
Merely I am not understanding the point. So I proceed to ask more questions.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by weitsicht » Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:19 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm
Q1 : Is hooking people to Buddhism through wealth a good thing or a bad thing? ( extra note : I think we must use all sort of skill full means to convert beings to the dharma - don’t expect a person to eat things he don’t like, that is... don’t feed him shit or something which he obviously hates. Feed him pizza maybe ! )
Buddhism is no religion. Hence no conversion. Its principles are a way of thinking.
A friend of mine is academic physicist and says that for the notion of nonduality you don't essentially need seeing lamas.
The dharma when applied by you speaks through you by what you do and what you refrain from. Being compassionate may invite others to compassion as-well.
The notion to practise any kind of Buddhist practise for the purpose of wealth sounds v e r y twisted to my.
I am siding by your father. He speaks from experience, not from narrow-mindedness.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm
Q2 : Do buddhists convert beings to the dharma? We shall consider the activity of the Buddha’s and bodhisattvas - do they convert beings to the dharma? Or do they just rest in empty space and wait for beings to come and say - oh hey, I waited for many eons and eons and eons before I finally wanted to study dharma. ( extra note : so do you think Buddha’s or bodhisattvas would convert a person who has karma to practice the Buddhadharma in the fastest way possible, or will they just wait for natural conditions for that person to practice dharma, which might take eons and eons. )
Buddhas or Bodhisattvas just are.
The Buddha met with people who did not recognize his enlightened nature. Did he then perform wonders to convince and convert them? No.
Don't look outside! Start looking inside first. Shamata comes before vipassana. First you have to be clear with yourself before trying to be clear with or about others.
It's all about relativism. You cannot know what is best for someone else. All you can try to learn is what is best for you.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm
Q3 : Do you think accumulating wealth in Buddhism is bad? Like doing practice for wealth? Is it bad? Tell me if it is good, why is it good and elaborate it. Why? So I have enough facts to triumph over my father’s words.
Wealth is neither good nor bad. It just is.
How do you think this practise will proliferate you with wealth? I don't get that.
Go and try out. Maybe this practise activates energies in you that may make you successful in terms of wealth. Maybe some causes will create other conditions. Who knows.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:37 pm
Anger arouse in me ! [...]
So I have enough facts to triumph over my father’s words.[...]
This is written when I am still very pissed with my Father over his words.
Antidote for all this hot emotions is insight meditation.
Sit down take deep breaths and go find answers for yourself where do these notions of anger, desire for triumph, being pissed/feeling provoked comes from. Who is thinking this way? What is it that makes you seeing your father this way? What is it that makes you think you know what is best for your father's friend?
If hot emotions rise again, watch them rising. Don't heat them further. Watch them ebbing down again.
Does your mind not want to do this look any further? Does it make you get off the meditation? Why so?
Look.
Insist.
Various times.
"How to meditate" by Pema Chödron is a book that could be applied well
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Jeff H » Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am
Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
weitsicht wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:19 pm
You cannot know what is best for someone else. All you can try to learn is what is best for you.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:09 pm
Merely I am not understanding the point. So I proceed to ask more questions.
You have received the answer many times. It's time for you to turn inward and reflect.

You really need to find a teacher to help you unlock your Dharma potential. You're so convinced of your own truth you're running in circles.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by Cianan » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 pm

Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am
Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
weitsicht wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:19 pm
You cannot know what is best for someone else. All you can try to learn is what is best for you.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:09 pm
Merely I am not understanding the point. So I proceed to ask more questions.
You have received the answer many times. It's time for you to turn inward and reflect.

You really need to find a teacher to help you unlock your Dharma potential. You're so convinced of your own truth you're running in circles.
:good:
Matthew, you should be focused on attending to your own practice and faults. A teacher is absolutely indispensable for this. Lovingly work to benefit others while genuinely establishing yourself in dharma—don't proselytize, inspire.

MatthewAngby
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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by MatthewAngby » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:49 am

Cianan wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:34 am
Your father sounds a wise man. I would listen to him.
weitsicht wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:19 pm
You cannot know what is best for someone else. All you can try to learn is what is best for you.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:09 pm
Merely I am not understanding the point. So I proceed to ask more questions.
You have received the answer many times. It's time for you to turn inward and reflect.

You really need to find a teacher to help you unlock your Dharma potential. You're so convinced of your own truth you're running in circles.
:good:
Matthew, you should be focused on attending to your own practice and faults. A teacher is absolutely indispensable for this. Lovingly work to benefit others while genuinely establishing yourself in dharma—don't proselytize, inspire.
This will be very off topic but - what if your teacher is somewhere far away, and you only have the resident Lama to talk to. How will you gain the blessings of the teacher ?
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

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Re: Great debate with my dad. And I need help.

Post by practitioner » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:16 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:49 am
Cianan wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:48 pm
Jeff H wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:25 pm






You have received the answer many times. It's time for you to turn inward and reflect.

You really need to find a teacher to help you unlock your Dharma potential. You're so convinced of your own truth you're running in circles.
:good:
Matthew, you should be focused on attending to your own practice and faults. A teacher is absolutely indispensable for this. Lovingly work to benefit others while genuinely establishing yourself in dharma—don't proselytize, inspire.
This will be very off topic but - what if your teacher is somewhere far away, and you only have the resident Lama to talk to. How will you gain the blessings of the teacher ?
How lucky you are to have a resident lama to teach you!
One should do nothing other than benefit sentient beings either directly or indirectly - Shantideva

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