Sorry, that is not what I meant to imply -- what I meant to imply was only that Central Asia is the source for much of Tibetan culture, and monastic musical idiom is no different. The music of Tibetan monasteries is war music, actually. It comes from Tibetan armies, they copied it from Central Asians like so much else in the deep fiber of Tibetan cultural influences. Basically, Tibetans adapted their "brass band" music to monastic uses.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:00 pmNestorian monastics using musical instruments? Were they allowed the usage of musical instruments? This is very interesting to me. Where is this substantiated?Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:54 pmYes, I am quite sure. Hand bells, thighbone trumpets, and damarus, yes, these come from India.
The rest, the massive horns (dung chen), the large drums (rnga chen), the misnamed rgya ling (Indian horn) is actually a sorna, of Persian origin. The cymbal is definitely of Persian/Central Asian origin, called sil snyan in Tibetan. Then the is the Bonpo bell called a Shang (Zang in Persian) and so on.
The reason for this is simple. Tibetan adopted Nestorian monastic customs and hierarchies in Tibetan monasteries. Persia was the major cultural influence on Western Tibet, aka Zhang Zhung empire, where power in the Himalayas was concentrated until the 7th century with the rise of the Yarlung Dynasty.
What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
This is interesting. I've heard it reported to me (I don't remember the source, but it may have been Shoshin Ichishima) that Shōmyō (声明) is also of Persian origin. I don't know because I wasn't there and I haven't studied it, but I can say that some Tibetan melodies and some Shōmyō melodies (and characteristic intervals and scales) suggest a common origin to my ears.Malcolm wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:54 pmYes, I am quite sure. Hand bells, thighbone trumpets, and damarus, yes, these come from India.
The rest, the massive horns (dung chen), the large drums (rnga chen), the misnamed rgya ling (Indian horn) is actually a sorna, of Persian origin. The cymbal is definitely of Persian/Central Asian origin, called sil snyan in Tibetan. Then the is the Bonpo bell called a Shang (Zang in Persian) and so on.
The reason for this is simple. Tibetan adopted Nestorian monastic customs and hierarchies in Tibetan monasteries. Persia was the major cultural influence on Western Tibet, aka Zhang Zhung empire, where power in the Himalayas was concentrated until the 7th century with the rise of the Yarlung Dynasty.
Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Malcolm is dead on. There are several specialist studies dealing with this point (though I don't have bibliographic info at hand).
Re: What is an existential threat to Dharma?
Well, a very old one that is now widely cited is Beckwith's "Introduction of Greek Medicine to Tibet" in which he shows that the Greek tradition was brought to Tibet not from India but from China by someone who had either a Persian or Sogdian name. Beckwith has written a lot about mutual infuences across Inner Eurasia. I think Kapstein's book on "The Tibetan Assimilation of Buddhism" has some scattered references. The musical stuff comes from, I think, a scholar named Mireille Hellfer, though I can't find any of the relevant articles online. Giuseppe Tucci, Per Kvaerne, and Dan Martin have also had more than a few things to say on the subject of Iranian influence in Tibet, and there's a good article by David Templeman on the connections, which can probably be found on a search engine (sorry, can't remember the title but it's a pretty obvious one).
By the way, I was agreeing with Malcolm on the Persian part of what he said, not the Nestorian part. That's not been well documented in the literature, AFAIK.
By the way, I was agreeing with Malcolm on the Persian part of what he said, not the Nestorian part. That's not been well documented in the literature, AFAIK.