What is an existential threat to Dharma?

[Natan]

The nonsense spouted by Buddhists is the greatest existential threat to Dharma.

No it is actually part of their path of learning.

Not convinced. The number of debates which simply go in circles suggests that learning may not always be an outcome.

That’s the lesson.

[Simon E.]

Which is a non-sequitur.

Lessons not learned are not lessons. They are just repetitive behaviours.

[Grigoris]

Which is a non-sequitur.

Lessons not learned are not lessons. They are just repetitive behaviours.

Seems to me that you did not learn the lesson.

[Simon E.]

Touche. And back atcha...

[Fortyeightvows]

you can't separate religion for culture

[Karma_Yeshe]

There's a sutta where the Buddha basically says that the Dharma will disappear when monks are more interested in other forms of entertainment than in actually listening to Dharma teachings. So, I guess a lot of things are a threat to the Dharma...

The sutra is about the source of the teachings. Buddhas says it is better to contemplate teachings that are deep in their meaning instead of teachings that sound nice but carry not much meaning. It is not about "other forms of enternainement".

I don't understand how you arrived at that interpretation. Would you care to explain?

The drum in the opening sequence is just an example. It then goes on:


In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won't listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata (...) are being recited. They won't lend ear, won't set their hearts on knowing them, won't regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering.

That means, they won't listen when orginial sutras are recited. Instead:
But they will listen when discourses that are literary works — the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples — are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

The last sentence, at least to me, makes it quite clear. The sutra is a comparison between the words of the Buddha himself and other discourses.

[Simon E.]

you can't separate religion for culture

Possibly not. But Dharma is always separate from religion.

[Grigoris]

you can't separate religion for culture

Possibly not. But Dharma is always separate from religion.

Don't be silly, Dharma can be found everywhere, even in religion and politics. That's the beauty of Dharma.

[Malcolm]

you can't separate religion for culture

Sure you can. This is how secular states function.

Americans are more American than they are Buddhists, Catholics, and so on.

It is absolutely essential to distinguish culture from religion. If we don't, we erroneously conclude FGM in Subsarahan Africa, etc., is part of Islam, but it isn't. It is just pre-Islamic African cultural practice. In Tibetan Buddhism, there are many practices which are cultural accretions, not part of the Dharma at all, for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music. Harmonic singing, which comes from Mongolian culture and was introduced to Gelug by Mongolian students, etc.

[Simon E.]

This.

[明安 Myoan]

what are some trends or factors that can hasten the extinction of Dharma among us here on planet Earth?

The complete absence of bodhicitta in today's popular "enjoy the moment" and secular strains of Buddhism will delay the awakening of many aspiring Buddhists.
It will also prolong the suffering of beings they won't be able to help.

But even in 1100s Japan, Honen had to handle e.g. people using Amitabha's compassion as justification for committing evil.
People's capacity for confusion and harm is nothing new.

Living in the realm characterized by desire and attachment means bodhicitta is in short supply, and people are reluctant to cultivate it.
I think this alone would be enough to drive the decline of the Dharma until the next buddha appears in this world.

[tingdzin]

IMO, the most serious threats to Buddhism in countries that historically had large numbers of Buddhists and a Buddhist culture or subculture are: Consumerist greed and the dumbnig down of and/ or disparagement of traditional culture by globalization.

[Tiago Simões]

This well known story of Trungpa Rinpoche might have something to say about this threat thing:

I lived at Tail of the Tiger from November 1971 until the spring of 1972 when Rinpoche asked me, along with Ken and Helen Green and their small son Mithra, to come to Jackson Hole, Wyoming to help run the Snow Lion Inn, where the 1973 Vajradhatu Seminary was later held.

At that time, in marked contrast to today, the political landscape was fairly simple and easy to navigate. On one side were the left wing, anti-war, anti-establishment, “free thinkers” — in other words the decent people like us. On the other side, were the right wing, pro-war, establishment reactionaries.

To our thinking there were no other significant groups or obstacles. If we could just get the establishment to hand over the reins to more open minded, less uptight people then a new, saner course could surely be charted.

In this context, about four of us are sitting on the floor in Rinpoche’s bedroom as he sits in his chair at his desk. I’m at the foot of his bed (a boxspring and mattress on the floor), my back to the wall, knees drawn up, just watching Rinpoche as he makes the occasional light banter or wordplay then reposes back into his utterly-present, aware-of-every-atom-in-the-room mode. During one of these pauses, someone says, “How should we deal with the right wing reactionaries?” Without missing a beat Rinpoche slowly replies, “Well, they are not the problem. The problem is going to be the do-gooders; those people who want to mind everyone else’s business.”

At that point, you could hear the proverbial pin drop. It was as if everyone’s mind had stopped; as if we had all just been presented with a Zen koan. After all, if there was only left wing and right wing, who were these do-gooders?

In addition, this talk by Lama Jampa Thaye I linked a while back:

https://lamajampa.org/news/2018/1/3/lam ... n-bodhgaya

[MiphamFan]

you can't separate religion for culture

Sure you can. This is how secular states function.

Americans are more American than they are Buddhists, Catholics, and so on.

It is absolutely essential to distinguish culture from religion. If we don't, we erroneously conclude FGM in Subsarahan Africa, etc., is part of Islam, but it isn't. It is just pre-Islamic African cultural practice. In Tibetan Buddhism, there are many practices which are cultural accretions, not part of the Dharma at all, for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music. Harmonic singing, which comes from Mongolian culture and was introduced to Gelug by Mongolian students, etc.

I somewhat knew about the latter (Mongolian throat singing-Gelug chanting connection) although I never read any formal articles about it but the former is interesting. So our chants as distant cousins of Islamic nasheeds. Any sources on this?

[Malcolm]

you can't separate religion for culture

Sure you can. This is how secular states function.

Americans are more American than they are Buddhists, Catholics, and so on.

It is absolutely essential to distinguish culture from religion. If we don't, we erroneously conclude FGM in Subsarahan Africa, etc., is part of Islam, but it isn't. It is just pre-Islamic African cultural practice. In Tibetan Buddhism, there are many practices which are cultural accretions, not part of the Dharma at all, for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music. Harmonic singing, which comes from Mongolian culture and was introduced to Gelug by Mongolian students, etc.

I somewhat knew about the latter (Mongolian throat singing-Gelug chanting connection) although I never read any formal articles about it but the former is interesting. So our chants as distant cousins of Islamic nasheeds. Any sources on this?

If I recall correctly, R.A. Stein has something to say about this: but the horns, drums, shwams, and the way they are played comes from Persian martial music.

[Caoimhghín]

for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music

My unfinished degree in ethnomusicology just fell off the wall it currently isn't hanging on when I read that.

Are you quite sure? Tibetan court music is in a musical-cultural sprachbund with much of China & surrounding areas. Not to mention the direct influence of music from the Indian subcontinent. Many of the instruments they play in Tibetan monasteries come right from India. I don't think the Indians got those instruments from the Persians.

I wouldn't count out a Persian connection, but that is an East Asian tradition of music much related to nearby systems of music.

[Carlita]

In the most recent thread on the Aro gTer, the idea of what may constitute an existential threat to Dharma emerged but got swallowed up again in a number of other claims and positions. I think it would be worthwhile to probe this one in more detail.

What, to your mind, constitutes an existential threat to Dharma? by that I mean: what are some trends or factors that can hasten the extinction of Dharma among us here on planet Earth?

I think sectarianism is one factor that could do it. Buddhists have fallen into the habit of tearing each other down, indeed building entire traditions (more than one in more than one country) around celebrating this truth over that truth as opposed to the other guy's, and thus making a virtue of running down competing sects and their leaders. I can show you examples of this at DW but do I really need to?

I have to quote the suttas on this:

“The beautiful chariots of kings wear out,
This body too undergoes decay.
But the Dhamma of the good does not decay:
So the good proclaim along with the good.”
http://www.wisdompubs.org/blog/201412/b ... ness-death

The Buddha predicts the "physical" dharma will decay.
https://essenceofbuddhism.wordpress.com ... ppear/amp/
Because monks will stop teaching it.

But The Dharma of the good (rebirth, compassion, truths, eight fold, etc) will not decay. They are embedded in life not dependent on the suttas.

If anything, the Practice of The Dharma may go instinct but because of rebirth, samara, etc, The Dharma will not.

[Caoimhghín]

One quote from the śrāvaka literature IMO testfies to at least the most common threat, if not the "most existential".

These learnt, they became intoxicated with pride, thinking to themselves: “The Supreme Buddha knows just the Three Piṭakāni, and we know them too. So what is the difference between us?”

-Ja 245

[Malcolm]

for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music

My unfinished degree in ethnomusicology just fell off the wall it currently isn't hanging on when I read that.

Are you quite sure?

Yes, I am quite sure. Hand bells, thighbone trumpets, and damarus, yes, these come from India.

The rest, the massive horns (dung chen), the large drums (rnga chen), the misnamed rgya ling (Indian horn) is actually a sorna, of Persian origin. The cymbal is definitely of Persian/Central Asian origin, called sil snyan in Tibetan. Then the is the Bonpo bell called a Shang (Zang in Persian) and so on.

The reason for this is simple. Tibetan adopted Nestorian monastic customs and hierarchies in Tibetan monasteries. Persia was the major cultural influence on Western Tibet, aka Zhang Zhung empire, where power in the Himalayas was concentrated until the 7th century with the rise of the Yarlung Dynasty.

[Caoimhghín]

for example, Tibetan monastic music, which ultimately derives from Persian martial music

My unfinished degree in ethnomusicology just fell off the wall it currently isn't hanging on when I read that.

Are you quite sure?

Yes, I am quite sure. Hand bells, thighbone trumpets, and damarus, yes, these come from India.

The rest, the massive horns (dung chen), the large drums (rnga chen), the misnamed rgya ling (Indian horn) is actually a sorna, of Persian origin. The cymbal is definitely of Persian/Central Asian origin, called sil snyan in Tibetan. Then the is the Bonpo bell called a Shang (Zang in Persian) and so on.

The reason for this is simple. Tibetan adopted Nestorian monastic customs and hierarchies in Tibetan monasteries. Persia was the major cultural influence on Western Tibet, aka Zhang Zhung empire, where power in the Himalayas was concentrated until the 7th century with the rise of the Yarlung Dynasty.

Nestorian monastics using musical instruments? Were they allowed the usage of musical instruments? This is very interesting to me. Where is this substantiated?