Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Sentient Light
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Sentient Light »

Varis wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:20 pm
This is actually why I asked. I wanted to know how Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners who perform these practices in Japan, Tibet, etc. rationalize worshiping their ancestors with the view of rebirth. It seems difficult for me to imagine that they have no reasoning for continuing these practices other than cultural mores, considering when you look at other practices adopted from non-Buddhists, like sang, they're always rationalized/reformatted within a Buddhist context.

I bet the Bonpo would have interesting answer.
From a Vietnamese perspective, we aren't told the ancestors are 'still around' in any real form. Some have gone to the Pure Land, many others have taken rebirth. But in whatever birth they are in currently, the hope is that the merit can reach them in some small way. If they are already in the Pure Land, then our merit adorns the Pure Land with more jeweled trees and whatnot. And we tend to extend the invitation out to any wandering ghosts when we do ancestor worship offering ceremonies, so part of it is also just general merit toward sentient beings. We do try to remember the ancestors, their lineage, etc. and it's widely acknowledged that ancestor worship came from indigenous practice, but there isn't much rationalization going on. There's the meritorious aspect of it, there's the mindfulness of death aspect of it, but I think the biggest thing is the community aspect: the ancestor worship rituals are something that the entire family can participate in, whether they are Buddhist, Catholic, or other. So the Buddhists have our take on it, and I'm sure the Catholics have a different take, and the folk religion people are appeased, and everyone's happy.

The offering ritual is called cúng; the practice of ancestor worship overall is called niệm chết (mindfulness of the dead / mindfulness of death). And the monastic teachers do emphasize that the ancestors are not there to receive our merit (although some merit may be able to reach them, it is not the point of the practice), that we practice these rituals mostly for our own benefit.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:
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DiamondMeru
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by DiamondMeru »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:37 pm
Varis wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:05 pm How is ancestor worship/placation viewed from the perspective of Mahayana?
What would be the point? All of our ancestors have long since taken rebirth.
If time is just a mental construct in samsara, perhaps the ancestors when they join unconditioned reality see all in their descendent and ancestors lives and can accept offerings. Perhaps they can be reborn into any reality, before and after your current time reality.
Personally I think the concept of no-self in Buddhism negates an afterlife existence as an ancestor. But, I believe in the unconditioned self as perhaps taking on the identies of dead relatives for shamans, and mediums to communicate with the living.
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Sentient Light wrote: Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:52 pm I think the biggest thing is the community aspect: the ancestor worship rituals are something that the entire family can participate in, whether they are Buddhist, Catholic, or other. So the Buddhists have our take on it, and I'm sure the Catholics have a different take, and the folk religion people are appeased, and everyone's happy.
I think Émile Durkheim would agree to this
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Fortyeightvows »

If someone wants a good understanding of ancestor worship in buddhism, check out a book by professor decaroli called "haunting the buddha"
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Queequeg
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Queequeg »

IIRC, since earliest times, merit earned in Dharma practice benefits not only ourselves, but our families, seven generations into the past and into the future. Since our ancestors and descendants are presently living, it would coincide with the merit that presently resonates from our practices.

In the Nichiren tradition, our merit is dedicated to ancestors who are understood to presently abide. Notwithstanding, Nichiren was living in a context in which ancestor worship was an important aspect of the spiritual landscape. Often in his letters to believers he would first acknowledge the significance of the deceased, the struggle that their death has engendered in the survivors (for instance, when addressing a young widow struggling with children), and then he would explain the merit for oneself and for the deceased from devoted practice. Its interesting how he often navigated what might be called folk beliefs, acknowledging them, but then changing the context to reorient the attention back to Dharma practice without causing a shock that might come if those closely holding such beliefs were simply dismissed. It actually presents an interesting study of how Buddhists integrate and subsume preexisting beliefs into a Buddhist framework, as opposed to what might be called a spiritual authoritarianism where the non-conforming views are simply bull dozed. We can see in the sutras that this approach started with the Buddha himself, as some have touched on above.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
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Malcolm
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:32 pm IIRC, since earliest times, merit earned in Dharma practice benefits not only ourselves, but our families,
All sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, excluding none.
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Queequeg
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:06 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:32 pm IIRC, since earliest times, merit earned in Dharma practice benefits not only ourselves, but our families,
All sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, excluding none.
So it should follow that our practice has far reaching merit for all beings, and that's my understanding of the Mahayana view... I'm sure you are more familiar with this than I am, but the "seven generations" thing seems to be a Vedic or Brahmanical legacy, a convention from the Buddha's time that was incorporated into Buddhism, but was not commensurate to the Buddha's complete message. It would take time for the full scope and breadth of the Buddha's teachings to emerge. Perhaps these were one of the minor conventions current at his time which were not worth challenging.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Varis
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Varis »

Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:06 pm All sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, excluding none.
And wives, husbands, friends, etc., right?
So presumably closer karmic affinity is what results in us getting married to certain people, being friends with others, etc? Puts a whole different spin on the concept of "soul mates", eh.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
Malcolm
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:06 pm
Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:32 pm IIRC, since earliest times, merit earned in Dharma practice benefits not only ourselves, but our families,
All sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, excluding none.
So it should follow that our practice has far reaching merit for all beings, and that's my understanding of the Mahayana view... I'm sure you are more familiar with this than I am, but the "seven generations" thing seems to be a Vedic or Brahmanical legacy, a convention from the Buddha's time that was incorporated into Buddhism, but was not commensurate to the Buddha's complete message. It would take time for the full scope and breadth of the Buddha's teachings to emerge. Perhaps these were one of the minor conventions current at his time which were not worth challenging.
It is brahmanical.
Malcolm
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Malcolm »

Varis wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:12 am
Malcolm wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:06 pm All sentient beings have been our mothers and fathers, excluding none.
And wives, husbands, friends, etc., right?
So presumably closer karmic affinity is what results in us getting married to certain people, being friends with others, etc? Puts a whole different spin on the concept of "soul mates", eh.
Indeed.
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rory
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by rory »

Queequeg wrote: Thu Apr 12, 2018 10:32 pm
So it should follow that our practice has far reaching merit for all beings, and that's my understanding of the Mahayana view... I'm sure you are more familiar with this than I am, but the "seven generations" thing seems to be a Vedic or Brahmanical legacy, a convention from the Buddha's time that was incorporated into Buddhism, but was not commensurate to the Buddha's complete message. It would take time for the full scope and breadth of the Buddha's teachings to emerge. Perhaps these were one of the minor conventions current at his time which were not worth challenging.
the 7 generations comes from the Ullambana Sutra,the story of Maudgalyayana (Mokuren) saving his mother from the Hell realm by , making merit and transferring it to his mother so she is reborn in heaven. This is the source of Japanese Obon as on this day beings can be saved from the Hell realm by merit transferred to them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maudgalya ... his_mother
Also the Ksitsgarbha Sutra again explains the benefits of making and transferring merit and is all about filial piety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%A ... S%C5%ABtra

As a Pure Land practitioner I dedicate the merits of my practice to my deceased father and sister for their rebirth in the Western Pure Land and for my mother's family and my father's family. So all my relations will have birth there and can practice the Dharma!

This is a very Buddhist act as we acknowledge our interdependence, that we would not be here today if our mother had not nursed us and our father supported us, that our life happened due to our ancestors.
gassho
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The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
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Toenail
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Toenail »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 6:37 pm
Varis wrote: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:05 pm How is ancestor worship/placation viewed from the perspective of Mahayana?
What would be the point? All of our ancestors have long since taken rebirth.
I have heard of a protector practice in the Yangzab(?) that includes or is for ancestors. I think the explanation given in this context was that since Samsara is beginningless we are all part of a ancestral lineage of enlightened Buddha's (I guess because every sentient being WILL attain enlightenment at some point, since Samsara is endless, there are countless of beings that already attained enlightenment and have been our ancestors).

Is that just nonsense?
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by SilenceMonkey »

Maybe some of the ancestors become ghosts or beings in the heavens. If in the lower realms, they may need some sort of spiritual help. Reciting sutras for them, etc... and dedicating merit. If in higher realms, perhaps they might be the ones helping us... watching over us and acting as protectors. Dedicating merit for them might be beneficial for us because they would return the favor and a nice relationship would deepen.

Ultimately, I think, buddhist practices for ancestors is for their liberation.

And just as doing practice with our own family is more powerful than practicing with people we aren't very connected with, the same is true in practice with our own ancestors. Of course all beings might be considered our ancestors... but perhaps for many people, there is strong connection with direct family ties.
Tenma
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Tenma »

By an evolutionary perspective, we all evolved from various hominids and prior to that, various different organisms and single-celled organisms. So, as there is the tradition that we must "honor our ancestors," we might as well honor our ancestors from beyond civilization.
Anyone up for the ancestor worship of our prehistoric and neolithic grannies? I, for one, am up for the idea! Let's recite sutras for the Millenium ago ancestors (and where on earth they are, we have no clue so let's make some karmic connections)

I bow to grandmother Lucy, accept this incense oh ye of Ethiopia!
Image

I offer incense to thee oh great-(x6.022*10^23) ancestor! Accept this, for we offer our respects and obeisance to thee, most-respected single celled one!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=htt ... AdAAAAABAO
tingdzin
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by tingdzin »

Varis wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2018 3:27 pm https://books.google.com/books?id=gzIPS ... he&f=false

Here's a link that describes multiple version of the stories,
thnaks for the reference. this looks interesting.
GrapeLover
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by GrapeLover »

I read this article the other day: https://tormafilm.com/2011/04/27/jangch ... nd-tormas/

Which basically suggests that at least one Tibetan view is that there is a kind of ‘energy’ or ‘vitality’ that stays behind from the deceased, though it isn’t actually “them” or a consciousness etc. And if that ‘energy’ is well-resourced then it exerts a beneficial effect on the descendants, while if it becomes weak then that has an adverse effect.
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by pemachophel »

I don't want to get into a "chicken or egg" discussion, but what Khenpo Karthar is describing is the same as the "Chinese" notion of the po and the post-death effects of feng shui on the po and therefore the deceased's descendants. In China, the feng shui of picking a burial site and its architecture is highly developed. If you go to Hong Kong, you can see cemeteries with their "horseshoe" shaped tombs based on these feng shui teachings.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
Varis
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by Varis »

pemachophel wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 4:20 pm I don't want to get into a "chicken or egg" discussion, but what Khenpo Karthar is describing is the same as the "Chinese" notion of the po and the post-death effects of feng shui on the po and therefore the deceased's descendants. In China, the feng shui of picking a burial site and its architecture is highly developed. If you go to Hong Kong, you can see cemeteries with their "horseshoe" shaped tombs based on these feng shui teachings.
Someone mentioned on this forum that the Drikung Kagyu have a special practice that involves arranging elements in a room like Feng Shui, and it was a method for attaining enlightenment. Interesting dharma door to say the least.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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alinhyagha
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Re: Ancestor worship from a Mahayana POV

Post by alinhyagha »

Outside the context of ethnic animisms, contemporary post-industrials who convert to Buddhism necessarily relate differently to this syncretic consideration. Ancestor veneration has the effect of structuring preservation of lineage folklores, archiving of knowledges experienced in folkways, etc. For example, even though genocide has taken place among American indigenous many influences are implicitly, invisibly retained.

There is a good book that discusses this phenomenon with reference to colonial New Orleans, Building the Devil's Empire by Shannon L. Dawdy. Surviving indigenous have their rich, inward cultures but all people in colonized lands walk with influences of the dead victims of European imperialism.

My personal opinion irrespective of Buddhism is that owing to existing in bodies sensitive to evolution, habits and historically contingent "customs" (in the pre-Industrial sense of the term) of ancestors accumulate and get re-expressed. In theater one talks about stock characters, apply that to families and ethnic clans. Ancestral veneration can be useful to cultivate performance skills in ritual, to navigate life with more ease on the basis of past examples, and to select a life based on temporalities of the past rather than the normative enforcement of the future's steady march.

Additionally, one can sometimes discern a family genius or dynamic recurring theme, often pertaining to reinforcing taboos or colluding within family systems to disavow traumas.
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