Mahayana and War

[MiphamFan]

Why did Mahayana and Vajrayana masters of the past such as the Great Fifth and Amoghavajra use war magic though?

[Malcolm]

Say you think the United States has been the most benevolent actor on the world stage out of all the contenders and you'll be looked at as nuts these days.

I happen to agree with you, which is why the Trump Presidency is such a shame. He has disowned the economic and political stability the US afforded the world (despite a sometimes checkered foreign policy) and has actively aided and abetted the forces of illiberalism to rise to the forefront. But part of that stability was assured because the Soviets and the Chinese had closed economies, and the US dominated the world in trade. With opening of China and the downfall of the Soviet Union, globalization has had the predictable effect of transitioning manufacturing jobs to cheaper labor markets without providing many Americans with jobs in their place. But the ridiculous rhetoric of the Trump administration has been neatly refuted by Dave Chapelle, who pointed out we don't want jobs "to come back" from China because we don't want $9,000 Iphones and $1000 NIkes.

Global trade liberalization is a fact, and we can do it well or poorly, but we cannot sit out the game.

[Malcolm]

Why did Mahayana and Vajrayana masters of the past such as the Great Fifth and Amoghavajra use war magic though?

They used it as a means of coping with their own afflictions, and the afflictions of their patrons.

[MiphamFan]

Why did Mahayana and Vajrayana masters of the past such as the Great Fifth and Amoghavajra use war magic though?

They used it as a means of coping with their own afflictions, and the afflictions of their patrons.

OK, let's put aside the Great Fifth but what about more peaceful types of war magic just for defence as Amoghavajra used?

He didn't target the invading armies specifically, just did a rite to bring peace AFAIK. The same rite has still been done in Japan.

[Malcolm]

Why did Mahayana and Vajrayana masters of the past such as the Great Fifth and Amoghavajra use war magic though?

They used it as a means of coping with their own afflictions, and the afflictions of their patrons.

OK, let's put aside the Great Fifth but what about more peaceful types of war magic just for defence as Amoghavajra used?

He didn't target the invading armies specifically, just did a rite to bring peace AFAIK. The same rite has still been done in Japan.

There are four activities; pacification is the first. We use these four all the time; the target is still the same -- why? It is because of the affliction in our own minds that sentient beings appear to us as friends and enemies.

[MiphamFan]

I'm not advocating for war, but it seems like the Mahayana relationship with violence is a bit more complex than the complete condemnation of it in the Pali Canon. There is that famous story of the captain and the potential mass murderer, and plenty of episodes of Mahayana/Vajrayana masters seeming to endorse violent force in some contexts: https://info-buddhism.com/Orientalism_V ... rling.html

[marting]

I'm not advocating for war, but it seems like the Mahayana relationship with violence is a bit more complex than the complete condemnation of it in the Pali Canon. There is that famous story of the captain and the potential mass murderer, and plenty of episodes of Mahayana/Vajrayana masters seeming to endorse violent force in some contexts: https://info-buddhism.com/Orientalism_V ... rling.html

I think a simpler explanation is that they were dealing with the real world around them.

[Malcolm]

I'm not advocating for war, but it seems like the Mahayana relationship with violence is a bit more complex than the complete condemnation of it in the Pali Canon. There is that famous story of the captain and the potential mass murderer, and plenty of episodes of Mahayana/Vajrayana masters seeming to endorse violent force in some contexts: https://info-buddhism.com/Orientalism_V ... rling.html

I think a simpler explanation is that they were dealing with the real world around them.

"Dealing with the real world around them" is not karma hall pass.

[marting]

I'm not advocating for war, but it seems like the Mahayana relationship with violence is a bit more complex than the complete condemnation of it in the Pali Canon. There is that famous story of the captain and the potential mass murderer, and plenty of episodes of Mahayana/Vajrayana masters seeming to endorse violent force in some contexts: https://info-buddhism.com/Orientalism_V ... rling.html

I think a simpler explanation is that they were dealing with the real world around them.

"Dealing with the real world around them" is not karma hall pass.

Stuff happens and they need to deal with it.

[Malcolm]

I think a simpler explanation is that they were dealing with the real world around them.

"Dealing with the real world around them" is not karma hall pass.

Stuff happens and they need to deal with it.

Rulers all go to hell. It’s the price they all pay for power in this life.

[Javierfv1212]

It depends on your understanding the real situation of samsara. If you don't understand— you join in, pick sides, and go to three lower realms. This is called having a one-lifetime view.

I'd like to add that its not as black and white as this makes it sound. That is, there are many things a bodhisattva can do during a war besides sit there that does not break the precepts or the injuction to right livelihood.

In fact, any role in a military, government agency or NGO which helps people during a war is admissible for a bodhisattva as long as it does not involve killing, convincing others to kill or lying (for example propaganda and so on) and dealing with weapons (weapons manufacture, research, munitions management, etc).

IMO any of the following roles in the armed forces would be admissible as long as one keeps the precepts: field medic, doctor, cook, chaplain, therapist, disaster relief, etc.

There are probably several roles which are pretty grey area, like transportation (where in some cases you might have to transport weapons and munitions) which I would steer clear from.

And of course one can work for NGOs providing relief and so on.

Even if one is somehow put in a combat role due to circumstances outside of one's control (this is not as rare historically as one might imagine, forced conscription and so on), one could still keep the precepts, just aim and shoot over the heads of the enemy with no intention to harm. Its still a really difficult position to be in of course. Hopefully things don't get that bad in my lifetime that I am forced into a position like this, but it has happened historically (Germany and Soviet Union during WW2 is one example).

Due to these possibilities, bodhisattvas in states which have conscription laws should research the status of Conscientious objectors in their countries and understand how the law works, should the need arise to claim such status.

[Malcolm]

You did not understand my statement. Read it again.

It depends on your understanding the real situation of samsara. If you don't understand— you join in, pick sides, and go to three lower realms. This is called having a one-lifetime view.

I'd like to add that its not as black and white as this makes it sound. That is, there are many things a bodhisattva can do during a war besides sit there that does not break the precepts or the injuction to right livelihood.

In fact, any role in a military, government agency or NGO which helps people during a war is admissible for a bodhisattva as long as it does not involve killing, convincing others to kill or lying (for example propaganda and so on) and dealing with weapons (weapons manufacture, research, munitions management, etc).

IMO any of the following roles in the armed forces would be admissible as long as one keeps the precepts: field medic, doctor, cook, chaplain, therapist, disaster relief, etc.

There are probably several roles which are pretty grey area, like transportation (where in some cases you might have to transport weapons and munitions) which I would steer clear from.

And of course one can work for NGOs providing relief and so on.

Even if one is somehow put in a combat role due to circumstances outside of one's control (this is not as rare historically as one might imagine, forced conscription and so on), one could still keep the precepts, just aim and shoot over the heads of the enemy with no intention to harm. Its still a really difficult position to be in of course. Hopefully things don't get that bad in my lifetime that I am forced into a position like this, but it has happened historically (Germany and Soviet Union during WW2 is one example).

Due to these possibilities, bodhisattvas in states which have conscription laws should research the status of Conscientious objectors in their countries and understand how the law works, should the need arise to claim such status.

[Javierfv1212]

Ultimately you are correct of course, but this does not invalidate what I said, these options are open for Buddhists in wartime to help beings on a relative level.

[Grigoris]

It is because of the affliction in our own minds that sentient beings appear to us as friends and enemies.

[Grigoris]

just aim and shoot over the heads of the enemy with no intention to harm.

I have a patient (he was conscripted) that did this, but when his officer found out, he was forced to desert. They captured him, jailed him, tortured him and raped him. Now I have to help glue all the pieces back together.

[Malcolm]

Ultimately you are correct of course, but this does not invalidate what I said, these options are open for Buddhists in wartime to help beings on a relative level.

You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.

[Virgo]

Ultimately you are correct of course, but this does not invalidate what I said, these options are open for Buddhists in wartime to help beings on a relative level.

You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.

That's the main point. Which karma that you do whether you are a medic or an infantryman, that is secondary. Though of course being a medic or something like that would be better, nevertheless your actions are supporting the war.

Kevin...

[Javierfv1212]

Ultimately you are correct of course, but this does not invalidate what I said, these options are open for Buddhists in wartime to help beings on a relative level.

You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.

What are you basing this on, if I may ask?

Also, in many cases, you don't "pick sides", a war comes to your part of the world and you just have to respond, in many cases, its impossible for someone not to be already identified with a certain ethnic or national group by merely being born in it, speaking a language, etc. If one can do good by being a medic, providing relief for others etc in a military organization, then there is nothing wrong with this.

If one keeps a mind of bodhicitta towards all beings, it doesn't matter what "side" one happens to be on really.

[Javierfv1212]

Ultimately you are correct of course, but this does not invalidate what I said, these options are open for Buddhists in wartime to help beings on a relative level.

You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.

nevertheless your actions are supporting the war.

So is paying your taxes

[Virgo]

You still did not understand. Picking sides is what causes one to go to lower realms.

nevertheless your actions are supporting the war.

So is paying your taxes

Only if you are a Republican.

Kevin...