On the Efficacy of Pure Land oriented prayers for others

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Mantrik
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:19 pm
And because we are in the academic discussion sub-forum I would recommend Gateway to Knowledge Vol II, Chapter 9, The Truth of Origin: Karma and Vol III, Chapter 22, The Conditioned and the Unconditioned. Another good read is The Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Chapter VIII, Compendium of Conditionality. These will lead one to gain an understanding of the complexity of karma and conditional relations.
You've read this and still make statements lke the one I quoted? Hardly a ringing endorsement, but answering the questions neatly dodged sir. ;)
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:21 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:30 pm
That is a very different assertion from it being additional to other causes and conditions, which everybody agrees on.
This is the first instance I have seen of somebody agreeing to this.
Um, read back.

To quote myself agreeing, but refusing to accept your negation of our own actions as worth performing:
''In essence what you are saying is that any action we perform may not be the (sole) cause of the consequences we attribute to it. Whilst true, I am still going to steer the car away from the wall. :)

I give up. You will never directly answer challenges to your own statements so I can't be bothered any more.
Last edited by Mantrik on Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:26 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:19 pm
And because we are in the academic discussion sub-forum I would recommend Gateway to Knowledge Vol II, Chapter 9, The Truth of Origin: Karma and Vol III, Chapter 22, The Conditioned and the Unconditioned. Another good read is The Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma, Chapter VIII, Compendium of Conditionality. These will lead one to gain an understanding of the complexity of karma and conditional relations.
You've read this and still make statements lke the one I quoted? Hardly a ringing endorsement, but answering the questions neatly dodged sir. ;)
Ad hom logical fallacy.

And, yes: The statement I made was not false in any way.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:29 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:24 pm
Um, read back.

To quote myself agreeing, but refusing to accept your negation of our own actions as worth performing:
''In essence what you are saying is that any action we perform may not be the (sole) cause of the consequences we attribute to it. Whilst true, I am still going to steer the car away from the wall. :)

I give up.
Except that I never said that chanting (or turning the steering wheel) is inconsequential. That is your straw man. I said that one cannot attribute something solely to the specific action, that is, and continues to be, a self-centered view.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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rory
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by rory » Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:09 am

There is a very beautiful full moon out tonight, which naturally makes me think of Amida and Kannon and their boundless compassionn:
"Good man, if any of the limitless hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of living beings who are undergoing all kinds of suffering hear of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva and recite his name single-mindedly, Guanshiyin Bodhisattva will immediately hear their voices and rescue them.

"If a person who upholds the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva enters a great fire, the fire will not burn him, all because of this Bodliisattva�s awesome spiritual power.

"If a person being tossed about in the great sea calls out the Bodhisattva�s name, he will find a shallow place.

"If the hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of beings who seek gold, silver, lapis lazuli, mother-of-pearl, carnelian, coral, amber, pearls, and so forth enter the great sea, an evil wind may toss their boats into the territory of the rakshasa ghosts. But if among them there is even one person who calls out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will all be saved from the difficulty of the rakshasas. For this reason, he is called Guanshiyin.

"Further, if a person who is about to be harmed calls out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, the knives and staves of the attackers will break into pieces and he will be saved.

"If yakshas and rakshasas enough to fill the three thousand great thousand world system come to torment a person, if they hear him call out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, all those evil ghosts will not even be able to stare at that person with their evil eyes, how much the less harm him.

"If a person, whether guilty or not, who has been put in stocks or bound with chains calls out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, his fetters will break apart and he will immediately be freed.

"If bandits enough to fill the three thousand great thousand world system infest a dangerous road on which a merchant chief in charge of costly jewels is leading a group of merchants, but among the merchants there is even a single person who says, �Good men, do not be afraid! You should all single-mindedly recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva. This Bodhisattva bestows fearlessness upon living beings. If you recite his name, you shall surely be saved from these robbers,� and if upon hearing that, the merchants all cry out together, �Namo Guanshiyin Bodhisattva,� then they will immediately be saved because they recited his name.

"Inexhaustible Intention! The awesome spiritual power of the Bodhisattva Mahasattva Guanshiyin is as lofty and sublime as that!

"If living beings who have much sexual desire constantly and reverently recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will be separated from desire.

"If those who have much hatred constantly and reverently recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will be separated from hatred.

"If those who are very stupid constantly and reverently recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will be separated from stupidity.

"Inexhaustible Intention, Guanshiyin Bodhisattva has great awesome spiritual powers such as these and confers great benefits. Therefore living beings should always be mindful of him.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus25.htm
gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:59 am

rory wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:09 am
There is a very beautiful full moon out tonight, which naturally makes me think of Amida and Kannon and their boundless compassionn:
"Good man, if any of the limitless hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of living beings who are undergoing all kinds of suffering hear of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva and recite his name single-mindedly, Guanshiyin Bodhisattva will immediately hear their voices and rescue them.

"If a person who upholds the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva enters a great fire, the fire will not burn him, all because of this Bodliisattva�s awesome spiritual power.

"If a person being tossed about in the great sea calls out the Bodhisattva�s name, he will find a shallow place.

"If the hundreds of thousands of myriads of kotis of beings who seek gold, silver, lapis lazuli, mother-of-pearl, carnelian, coral, amber, pearls, and so forth enter the great sea, an evil wind may toss their boats into the territory of the rakshasa ghosts. But if among them there is even one person who calls out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will all be saved from the difficulty of the rakshasas. For this reason, he is called Guanshiyin.

"Further, if a person who is about to be harmed calls out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, the knives and staves of the attackers will break into pieces and he will be saved.

"If yakshas and rakshasas enough to fill the three thousand great thousand world system come to torment a person, if they hear him call out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, all those evil ghosts will not even be able to stare at that person with their evil eyes, how much the less harm him.

"If a person, whether guilty or not, who has been put in stocks or bound with chains calls out the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, his fetters will break apart and he will immediately be freed.

"If bandits enough to fill the three thousand great thousand world system infest a dangerous road on which a merchant chief in charge of costly jewels is leading a group of merchants, but among the merchants there is even a single person who says, �Good men, do not be afraid! You should all single-mindedly recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva. This Bodhisattva bestows fearlessness upon living beings. If you recite his name, you shall surely be saved from these robbers,� and if upon hearing that, the merchants all cry out together, �Namo Guanshiyin Bodhisattva,� then they will immediately be saved because they recited his name.

"Inexhaustible Intention! The awesome spiritual power of the Bodhisattva Mahasattva Guanshiyin is as lofty and sublime as that!

"If living beings who have much sexual desire constantly and reverently recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will be separated from desire.

"If those who have much hatred constantly and reverently recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will be separated from hatred.

"If those who are very stupid constantly and reverently recite the name of Guanshiyin Bodhisattva, they will be separated from stupidity.

"Inexhaustible Intention, Guanshiyin Bodhisattva has great awesome spiritual powers such as these and confers great benefits. Therefore living beings should always be mindful of him.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus25.htm
gassho
Rory
Where, in the quoted section, does it say that it works when you do it for others?

And another point: if a normal joe like me can call Amitabha Buddha/Guanyin to save me from all sorts of illness and danger, then why did the Buddha allow himself to die of a gastric infarction? Why didn't he save himself? Why didn't Ananda save him by praying to Amitabha Buddha/Guanyin? Maybe the Buddha and Ananda did and it was due to a lack of faith that it did not achieve the desired result?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by rory » Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:47 am

Grigoris: Where, in the quoted section, does it say that it works when you do it for others?
This is where your ignorance of Pure Land and the Lotus Sutra matters:

That's Ch. 25 the famous Kwan-Yin chapter of the Lotus Sutra; Kannon can use her karma to overcome the individual's bad karma, who calls upon her. The Pure Land sutras explain that Amida and Kannon build up huge amounts of good karma due to their vows and when individuals with crap karma call upon them, wishing to be born in their pure land, by karmic transfer those individuals can be born there. That's how it works: via karmic transfer. Now you can do this for others simply by transferring the merit of the pure land practice. So if I call upon Amida and pray for someone's Birth in the Western Pure land, I transfer the merit to them at the end of my practice. Everyone in East Asia does this practice: for the living for the dead for pets...all sentient beings.
And another point: if a normal joe like me can call Amitabha Buddha/Guanyin to save me from all sorts of illness and danger, then why did the Buddha allow himself to die of a gastric infarction? Why didn't he save himself? Why didn't Ananda save him by praying to Amitabha Buddha/Guanyin? Maybe the Buddha and Ananda did and it was due to a lack of faith that it did not achieve the desired result?
Again you need to read the Lotus Sutra, specifically Ch. 16 The Thus Come One's Life Span it spells it out quite clearly: The Buddha isn't dead, and never really died, he's on Sacred Vulture Peak. To the unenlightened it just looks like he lived and died. I'm really surprised to ever see you write such a thing;
From the time I attained Buddhahood,
The eons that have passed
Are limitless hundreds of thousands of myriads
Of kotis of asamkhyeyas in number.
I always speak the Dharma to teach and transform
Countless millions of living beings,
So they enter the Buddha Way.
And throughout these limitless eons,
In order to save living beings,
I expediently manifest Nirvana.
But in truth I do not pass into quiescence.
I remain here, always speaking the Dharma.
I always stay right here,

And using the power of spiritual penetrations,
I cause inverted living beings,
Although near me, not to see me.
The multitudes see me as passing into quiescence.
They extensively make offerings to my sharira.
All cherish ardent longing for me,
And their hearts look up to me in thirst.
Living beings, then faithful and subdued,
Straightforward, with compliant minds,
Single-mindedly wish to see the Buddha,
Caring not for their very lives.
At that time I and the Sangha assembly
All appear together on Magic Vulture Mountain,
Where I say to living beings
That I am always here and never cease to be.
But using the power of expedient devices
I manifest "ceasing" and "not ceasing" to be.
For living beings in other lands,
Reverent, faithful, and aspiring,
I speak the Unsurpassed Dharma.
But you who do not hear this
Think that I have passed into quiescence.
I see living beings
Sunk in misery, and yet
I refrain from manifesting for them
In order to cause them to look up in thirst,
Then, when their minds are filled with longing,
I emerge and speak the Dharma.

With such powerful spiritual penetrations,
Throughout asamkhyeyas of eons,
I remain always on Magic Vulture Mountain
And also dwell in other places.
When beings see the eon ending
And ravaged by the great fire,
My land is peaceful and secure,
...... Sometimes for this assembly,
I speak of the Buddha�s life span as limitless.
To those who see the Buddha only after long intervals,
I speak of the Buddha as being difficult to meet
.
The power of my wisdom
The unlimited illumination of my wisdom
Is such that my life span is one of countless eons
Attained through long cultivation and work.
Those of you with wisdom,
Should not have doubts about this.
Cut them off entirely and forever,
For the Buddha�s words are real, not false.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus16.htm

gassho
Rory
Namu Kanzeon Bosatsu
Chih-I:
The Tai-ching states "the women in the realms of Mara, Sakra and Brahma all neither abandoned ( their old) bodies nor received (new) bodies. They all received buddhahood with their current bodies (genshin)" Thus these verses state that the dharma nature is like a great ocean. No right or wrong is preached (within it) Ordinary people and sages are equal, without superiority or inferiority
Paul, Groner "The Lotus Sutra in Japanese Culture"eds. Tanabe p. 58
https://www.tendai-usa.org/

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Wed Jan 31, 2018 2:40 am

rory wrote:I'm really surprised to ever see you write such a thing;
You're suprised by the statement that the Buddha died? That's a bit bizarre, don't you think?

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:45 am

rory wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:47 am
This is where your ignorance of Pure Land and the Lotus Sutra matters:

That's Ch. 25 the famous Kwan-Yin chapter of the Lotus Sutra; Kannon can use her karma to overcome the individual's bad karma, who calls upon her. The Pure Land sutras explain that Amida and Kannon build up huge amounts of good karma due to their vows and when individuals with crap karma call upon them, wishing to be born in their pure land, by karmic transfer those individuals can be born there. That's how it works: via karmic transfer. Now you can do this for others simply by transferring the merit of the pure land practice. So if I call upon Amida and pray for someone's Birth in the Western Pure land, I transfer the merit to them at the end of my practice. Everyone in East Asia does this practice: for the living for the dead for pets...all sentient beings.
This does not answer my question. I asked you where in the quoted section... and instead of (maybe) quoting me a piece from another part of the Lotus Sutra proving your point, you just post some general commentary.
Again you need to read the Lotus Sutra, specifically Ch. 16 The Thus Come One's Life Span it spells it out quite clearly: The Buddha isn't dead, and never really died, he's on Sacred Vulture Peak. To the unenlightened it just looks like he lived and died. I'm really surprised to ever see you write such a thing;
His Nirmanakaya died. Mahaparinirvana and all that jazz.
From the time I attained Buddhahood,
...
For the Buddha�s words are real, not false.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus16.htm
This is referring to the Buddha's Dharmakaya. Siddhārtha Gautama died. According to your logic he could have healed himself (not lacking faith in Buddhahood and all) by praying to Buddha Amitabha, just like you claimed you did.

Again, I do not doubt that chanting and praying can have an effect, like I said: In Vajrayana we have this notion too. I just believe that there may be more factors in play, that we are not taking into account.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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