Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:34 pm
I should add, that in Pali scriptures, ekayāna refers to the direct path.
One note of pedantry here: ekayāna is a Sinicism. It doesn't appear in Pāli.

Chinese translators read ekāyana in Sanskritic texts & mistranslated it as ekayāna (一乘).
Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 pm


One note of pedantry here: ekayāna is a Sinicism. It doesn't appear in Pāli.

Chinese translators read ekāyana in Sanskritic texts & mistranslated it as ekayāna (一乘).
Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
Meaning son, the meaning.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm


Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
Meaning son, the meaning.
The location of the placement of the macron is rather important. It determines the semantic value of the compound, or the meaning. For instance: ekayana with a macron on the second a is "one vehicle". Ekayana with the macron on the first a is not.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm


But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
Meaning son, the meaning.
The location of the placement of the macron is rather important. It determines the semantic value of the compound, or the meaning. For instance: ekayana with a macron on the second a is "one vehicle". Ekayana with the macron on the first a is not.
Somehow my reply did not take. It is more likely that the long vowel sandhi (eka ayana) was shifted when this term was translated from Prakrit to Sanskrit, i.e. Pali ekāyana -->Sanskrit ekayāna.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1684
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:35 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm


Meaning son, the meaning.
The location of the placement of the macron is rather important. It determines the semantic value of the compound, or the meaning. For instance: ekayana with a macron on the second a is "one vehicle". Ekayana with the macron on the first a is not.
Somehow my reply did not take. It is more likely that the long vowel sandhi (eka ayana) was shifted when this term was translated from Prakrit to Sanskrit, i.e. Pali ekāyana -->Sanskrit ekayāna.
Does Mahāyāna literature that outrightly uses the word "ekayāna" cite the ekāganamārga passage full enough to be a direct quotation? Lacking that, if I may add a speculation:

I think it is also likely that ekayāna is a term in Mahāyāna and it is fortuitous that ekāyana sounds like it and some people may have saw it and made a connection with the older literature.

Now here is where I am deeply out of my element, so input with someone with good exposure to Buddhist literature in Sanskrit would be helpful:

AFAIK, ekayāna is also absent from expressly non-Mahāyāna texts, and by that I refer to śrāvaka texts. We only get ekāyana in Sanskrit afaik.

bhaviṣyatīti viditvā pañca ṛṣiśatāni śrāvastīṃ saṃprasthitāni |
098.007 teṣāmāgacchatāṃ bhagavatā ekāyano mārgo ’dhiṣṭhitaḥ
(Prātihāryasūtra)
eṣo 'ñjaso hu eṣa ca vai parākramas
tu ekāyano haṁsapatho yathā hrade ।
yam adhyagāc chakyamuniḥ samāhitas
tam eva cākhyāti gaṇeṣv abhīkṣṇaśaḥ ।।
ekāyanaṁ jātijarāntadarśī
mārgaṁ vadaty eṣa hitānukampī ।
etena mārgeṇa hi tīrṇavantas
tariṣyate ye prataranti caugham ।।
(Udānavarga 12 - Mārgavarga)
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:29 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:38 pm
the white elephant (not ox)
Is this from the Nepalese LS?
no its my error, based on a hasty misreading of a secondary source in Tibetan.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 5925
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm
According to your tradition it does, since there is only one vehicle and not three. In fact, Candrakīrti cites the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka in support of this verse.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 am
Indeed. However Zhiyi could not have read Candra.
How so?
Candra lived in the 9th century.
SMH
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

DGA
Former staff member
Posts: 9328
Joined: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:04 pm
Contact:

Re: Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:21 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:12 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm
According to your tradition it does, since there is only one vehicle and not three. In fact, Candrakīrti cites the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka in support of this verse.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm


How so?
Candra lived in the 9th century.
SMH
I’m right there with you. These posts make zero sense taken out of context and juxtaposed in this way.

SMH indeed.

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 5925
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:40 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:21 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:12 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm
According to your tradition it does, since there is only one vehicle and not three. In fact, Candrakīrti cites the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka in support of this verse.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm


Candra lived in the 9th century.
SMH
I’m right there with you. These posts make zero sense taken out of context and juxtaposed in this way.

SMH indeed.
Smh. Right back atcha.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PSM and 46 guests