Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

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Queequeg
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Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

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Grigoris wrote: Tue Jan 30, 2018 8:59 am And another point: if a normal joe like me can call Amitabha Buddha/Guanyin to save me from all sorts of illness and danger, then why did the Buddha allow himself to die of a gastric infarction?
Because Ananda couldn't take a hint.
Why didn't he save himself?
Because if the Buddha remained in the world all the time in the form of a Buddha with all the Major and Minor marks, beings would grow complacent and fail to appreciate how rare and wonderful it is to encounter a Buddha. And so he makes a show of dying.

The Buddha's entire appearance, from birth to death, was a show for the purpose of teaching beings the Buddha Path.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:07 pm
The Buddha's entire appearance, from birth to death, was a show for the purpose of teaching beings the Buddha Path.
That is part of the Mahāyāna catechism, for sure.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:07 pmBecause if the Buddha remained in the world all the time in the form of a Buddha with all the Major and Minor marks, beings would grow complacent and fail to appreciate how rare and wonderful it is to encounter a Buddha. And so he makes a show of dying.

The Buddha's entire appearance, from birth to death, was a show for the purpose of teaching beings the Buddha Path.
In which case you re saying that there can be an eternal Nirmanakaya.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:45 am
rory wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 1:47 amThis is where your ignorance of Pure Land and the Lotus Sutra matters:

That's Ch. 25 the famous Kwan-Yin chapter of the Lotus Sutra; Kannon can use her karma to overcome the individual's bad karma, who calls upon her. The Pure Land sutras explain that Amida and Kannon build up huge amounts of good karma due to their vows and when individuals with crap karma call upon them, wishing to be born in their pure land, by karmic transfer those individuals can be born there. That's how it works: via karmic transfer. Now you can do this for others simply by transferring the merit of the pure land practice. So if I call upon Amida and pray for someone's Birth in the Western Pure land, I transfer the merit to them at the end of my practice. Everyone in East Asia does this practice: for the living for the dead for pets...all sentient beings.
This does not answer my question. I asked you where in the quoted section... and instead of (maybe) quoting me a piece from another part of the Lotus Sutra proving your point, you just post some general commentary.
Again you need to read the Lotus Sutra, specifically Ch. 16 The Thus Come One's Life Span it spells it out quite clearly: The Buddha isn't dead, and never really died, he's on Sacred Vulture Peak. To the unenlightened it just looks like he lived and died. I'm really surprised to ever see you write such a thing;
His Nirmanakaya died. Mahaparinirvana and all that jazz.
From the time I attained Buddhahood,
...
For the Buddha�s words are real, not false.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/reso ... otus16.htm
This is referring to the Buddha's Dharmakaya. Siddhārtha Gautama died. According to your logic he could have healed himself (not lacking faith in Buddhahood and all) by praying to Buddha Amitabha, just like you claimed you did.

Again, I do not doubt that chanting and praying can have an effect, like I said: In Vajrayana we have this notion too. I just believe that there may be more factors in play, that we are not taking into account.

Greg, there is little point. While there are certain areas of overlap, for the most part, Lotus Sūtravadins seem incapable of hearing anything outside of their own echo chamber, even our friend Queequeg.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:15 pmGreg, there is little point. While there are certain areas of overlap, for the most part, Lotus Sūtravadins seem incapable of hearing anything outside of their own echo chamber, even our friend Queequeg.
I don't mind the echo chamber effect. If Rory can can up with a quote from the Lotus Sutra that supports their position, that is fine by me. The Lotus Sutra is still a Sutra.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:15 pm Greg, there is little point. While there are certain areas of overlap, for the most part, Lotus Sūtravadins seem incapable of hearing anything outside of their own echo chamber, even our friend Queequeg.
Hey! I'm right here! Kind of rude to talk about me in the third person right in front of me.

Joking aside, I'm concerned about this echochamber. What are the contours of this echochamber. I must check the specifications...
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:14 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:07 pmBecause if the Buddha remained in the world all the time in the form of a Buddha with all the Major and Minor marks, beings would grow complacent and fail to appreciate how rare and wonderful it is to encounter a Buddha. And so he makes a show of dying.

The Buddha's entire appearance, from birth to death, was a show for the purpose of teaching beings the Buddha Path.
In which case you re saying that there can be an eternal Nirmanakaya.
That's my understanding. A particular emanation could endure eternally. And the Buddha suggests that he does. The question then is, what are the circumstances in which the eternal emanation is expedient?

The Buddha made a show of his parinirvana, I think, in order to present an example to the Sravaka that they could follow and emulate - the Arhat ideal. Part of what defines the Sravaka path is the limited definition of a living being. Its a particular world view closely defined by the limits of ordinary experience in this world. Its not until the Mahayana was revealed that we really came to know of cosmic bodhisattvas and other advanced beings whose appearance has the tendency to radically expand the scope of the term "living being".

Anyway, for what sort of being is an eternal Nirmanakaya an expedient?

:popcorn:
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:34 pm
That's my understanding. A particular emanation could endure eternally.
Not one popped out of a human womb.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:34 pm
That's my understanding. A particular emanation could endure eternally.
Not one popped out of a human womb.
Right, but then this Buddha is appearing to particular causes and conditions where an eternal duration would not be expedient.

Image
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:47 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:34 pm
That's my understanding. A particular emanation could endure eternally.
Not one popped out of a human womb.
Right, but then this Buddha is appearing to particular causes and conditions where an eternal duration would not be expedient.
Everything that arises, perishes. Fantasizing about eternal nirmanakāyas is, well, just a fantasy. There is no such thing.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:54 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:47 pm

Not one popped out of a human womb.
Right, but then this Buddha is appearing to particular causes and conditions where an eternal duration would not be expedient.
Everything that arises, perishes. Fantasizing about eternal nirmanakāyas is, well, just a fantasy. There is no such thing.
Is this addressed to me? You seem to ignore my consistent use of the term, "expedient".
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:16 pm
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:54 pm

Right, but then this Buddha is appearing to particular causes and conditions where an eternal duration would not be expedient.
Everything that arises, perishes. Fantasizing about eternal nirmanakāyas is, well, just a fantasy. There is no such thing.
Is this addressed to me? You seem to ignore my consistent use of the term, "expedient".
Yes, it is not convincing. One cannot wish away all contradictions by claiming that everything is an expedient device. The Buddha can no more dismiss the laws of causality than you or I. If someone is born, they die. End of story.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:24 pm Yes, it is not convincing. One cannot wish away all contradictions by claiming that everything is an expedient device. The Buddha can no more dismiss the laws of causality than you or I. If someone is born, they die. End of story.
In this threefold world, what is not expedient? What is not subject to arising and perishing?
Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:34 pm Anyway, for what sort of being is an eternal Nirmanakaya an expedient?
I'll take a stab at answering my own question... probably for someone limited by the absolute limitations of arising and perishing. Oh, well whaddaya know? The Lotus is at least partly addressed to Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha who in respects can be characterized by their insights to arising and perishing... And to Bodhisattvas who, though transcending the scope of Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha, still are limited by arising and perishing.

"Takes a long time, but God dies, too, but not before he'll stick it to you!"
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:32 pm
Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:24 pm Yes, it is not convincing. One cannot wish away all contradictions by claiming that everything is an expedient device. The Buddha can no more dismiss the laws of causality than you or I. If someone is born, they die. End of story.
In this threefold world, what is not expedient? What is not subject to arising and perishing?
It seems you mean the term "upāya" by expedient. But you are misusing the word "expedient" in this context, in addition to misusing the term upāya. "Expedient" is not a useful translation of that term. In fact, it is wrong. Upāya means "method" or "means."

Expedient:

adjective
(of an action) convenient and practical, although possibly improper or immoral:
Hell, for example, is not very expedient, since it is very inconvenient and impractical to be stuck there.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:32 pm
I'll take a stab at answering my own question... probably for someone limited by the absolute limitations of arising and perishing. Oh, well whaddaya know? The Lotus is at least partly addressed to Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha who in respects can be characterized by their insights to arising and perishing... And to Bodhisattvas who, though transcending the scope of Sravaka and Pratyekabuddha, still are limited by arising and perishing.

"Takes a long time, but God dies, too, but not before he'll stick it to you!"
"All formations are impermanent."

-- the Buddha.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:40 pm
In this threefold world, what is not expedient? What is not subject to arising and perishing?
It seems you mean the term "upāya" by expedient. But you are misusing the word "expedient" in this context, in addition to misusing the term upāya. "Expedient" is not a useful translation of that term. In fact, it is wrong.

Expedient:

adjective
(of an action) convenient and practical, although possibly improper or immoral:
Hell, for example, is not very expedient, since it is very inconvenient and impractical to be stuck there.
Yeah, we may have to see our differences and go our separate ways.

There is no place in the three-fold world where the Buddha does not penetrate. Even in hell, the Buddha makes an appearance to lead beings to Buddhahood. I have a Tibetan Wheel of Life hanging in my house and I notice that even in the hell section, there is a Buddha. Am I reading that wrong to understand that even beings in hell are not beyond the Buddha's activity?

In any event, the perfect extension of the Buddha means that even hell, from the Buddha's perspective, is edifying and to be found on the path to Buddhahood, hence, for those beings, even the tortures of hell are upaya, because even that path inevitably ends in Buddhahood.

I'd like to think I don't need to learn the lessons of hell again, but its vastly more likely than not that I will need to learn those lessons many, many more times before it finally sinks in.

I know for you these lessons are not in the cards. Congratulations! Schools out forever!
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:45 pm "All formations are impermanent."

-- the Buddha.
Formations are for suckers.

So doesn't think the god dwelling in neither thought nor no thought.

Formations are expedients. So understands the Buddha's good little student.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:53 pm
There is no place in the three-fold world where the Buddha does not penetrate. Even in hell, the Buddha makes an appearance to lead beings to Buddhahood. I have a Tibetan Wheel of Life hanging in my house and I notice that even in the hell section, there is a Buddha. Am I reading that wrong to understand that even beings in hell are not beyond the Buddha's activity?
Yes, according to the teachings of the Nyingma school, there is a Buddha presiding over each of the six realms.
hence, for those beings, even the tortures of hell are upaya, because even that path inevitably ends in Buddhahood.
Buddhas do not use torture as an upāya. I know you think this is really clever, but it is actually really dumb. The Buddha in Hell is there to relieve the sufferings of the beings inhabiting it in whatever small ways they can. The Buddha of hell is not there to preside over their misery and use it as a "teaching moment."

Unless a being obtains a precious human birth with the eight freedoms and ten endowments, there is no possibility they will meet the Dharma, let alone practice, and so on. Groovy theories about the interpenetration of realms are pretty useless in this regard.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:00 pm

Formations are expedients.
This very bad English.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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Malcolm wrote: Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:05 pm Buddhas do not use torture as an upāya. I know you think this is really clever, but it is actually really dumb. The Buddha in Hell is there to relieve the sufferings of the beings inhabiting it in whatever small ways they can. The Buddha of hell is not there to preside over their misery and use it as a "teaching moment."
That is a point well taken, and actually occurred to me as I was writing that in a putative form. Thank you for drawing that out.

Retribution is inescapable, but each time we emerged from hell, it was because we made causes to do so. Seems to me there is more in the Buddha's function than merely absorbing the sufferings on behalf of another. And that doesn't really make sense. The Buddha could absorb and endure everyone's punishment indefinitely, but that would merely put off the retribution - suspend cause and effect. The karma is not dissipated.

So then what is the function of Buddha in hell? As I understand, its the act of kindness in relieving the other's suffering, which sets an example for others to be internalized and then extended to others, and so starts their long climb out of hell. In the Jatakas, the Buddha appeared as the leader of his peers in all the various realms, leading by his example.

Your presentation of the Buddha is a little one dimensional.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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