Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by GDPR_Anonymized001 »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:21 am

Ekayana in the Lotus means that even when the Buddha teaches the the three vehicles he is actually teaching the one Buddhayana. Those on the sravakayana are taught arhatship and are aiming for arhatship; pratyekabuddhayana are aiming for pratyekabuddhahood; bodhisattvayana are taught a particular ideal of Buddhahood culminating after 3 eons of practice and they aim for that particular conception of Buddhahood. The actual goal of the Ekayana is not known within these paths. The Buddha is preparing them all to receive the Buddhayana. The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
That is a novel interpretation.
Malcolm,

Can you say a bit more on this? Why is this a novel interpretation? If I recall correctly, in the Parable chapter the father promises three carts to his kids, deer (pratyekabuddha), ox (bodhisattva), and goat (sravaka). However, when they come outside all they find is single cart not pulled by any of the animals listed above, but rather a great white ox.

In your tradition, how would you describe this forth jeweled cart, the one pulled by a great white ox? Sorry to say, I remain rather ignorant of the specifics of the Tibetan traditions. (I also realize there are differing perspectives on what constitutes ekayana in Japanese traditions...)

jake
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:26 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:12 pm The Buddha is considered eternal, so the paths are eternal.
You are referring to the rūpakāya? If so, this is just not so. With respect to this assertion, the Buddha states in the PP in 100,000 lines:
Trikaya. I understand this to mean that no particular rupakaya is eternal, but that the Buddha's manifestations are incessant and ubiquitous, appearing in response to the needs of beings.
BTW, some Buddhas, like Sikhin, never ordain a monastic Sangha. So, just how are all paths eternal?
Three is a convention. The three paths are laid out in response to the needs of the beings. If they need a fourth path, the Buddha would lay that out. If they only need one path, that's what the Buddha would lay out.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:07 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:12 pm
marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:30 am I think I follow: that the three would not be treading the path of Buddhayana without the Buddha? Just wanted to double check.

With the ekayana perspective can the three paths arise without the Buddha?

(Maybe the hang-up is that I'm just trying to understand the subject better. I'm not arguing.)
Right, the message of the Lotus seems to be that the Buddha teaches three paths to prepare beings for the Buddhayana. Without Buddha, there are no paths at all. Buddha is considered eternal, so the paths are eternal.
Ah, thanks. What is your take on Nagarjuna and his quote from earlier:

"If the perfect buddha does not arise and the śrāvakas vanish,
even so, the wisdom of the pratyekabuddhas will arise without support"
See the text I linked above.

The awakening of the pratyekabuddha does not equal the awakening of a Buddha. It is of an inferior nature.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

jake wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:43 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:21 am

Ekayana in the Lotus means that even when the Buddha teaches the the three vehicles he is actually teaching the one Buddhayana. Those on the sravakayana are taught arhatship and are aiming for arhatship; pratyekabuddhayana are aiming for pratyekabuddhahood; bodhisattvayana are taught a particular ideal of Buddhahood culminating after 3 eons of practice and they aim for that particular conception of Buddhahood. The actual goal of the Ekayana is not known within these paths. The Buddha is preparing them all to receive the Buddhayana. The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
That is a novel interpretation.
Malcolm,

Can you say a bit more on this? Why is this a novel interpretation? If I recall correctly, in the Parable chapter the father promises three carts to his kids, deer (pratyekabuddha), ox (bodhisattva), and goat (sravaka). However, when they come outside all they find is single cart not pulled by any of the animals listed above, but rather a great white ox.

In your tradition, how would you describe this forth jeweled cart, the one pulled by a great white ox? Sorry to say, I remain rather ignorant of the specifics of the Tibetan traditions. (I also realize there are differing perspectives on what constitutes ekayana in Japanese traditions...)

jake
Hey jake,

Not knowing much about this subject, I googled it and came up with an excerpt from Emptiness and Omnipresence: An Essential Introduction to Tiantai Buddhism by Brook A. Ziporyn:
The deer cart is the śrāvaka vehicle; the goat cart is the pratyekabuddha vehicle; the ox cart is the bodhisattva vehicle. The ox cart is what all of them get: all of them are really bodhisattvas. But note that the ox cart that is received is not exactly the same as the ox cart promised, desired, imagined while the children were still inside the house; rather, it is a much grander ox cart. It is, in fact, the ox cart that satisfies all three of these divergent types of desire at once. The difference between the ox cart promised and the ox cart attained is that the latter includes the other two carts. The difference between the bodhisattva vehicle as conceived before the Lotus Sūtra and the revelation of the Lotus Sūtra is that now bodhisattvahood includes also śrāvakahood and pratyekabuddhahood: it also includes the paths that denied orignored the whole idea of bodhisattvahood; those deniers too are bodhisattvas.
If Ziporyn is correct, is this a different understanding from Queequeg's presentation? It appears to be.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:56 pm The awakening of the pratyekabuddha does not equal the awakening of a Buddha. It is of an inferior nature.
What I am asking is: how is the awakening of the pratyekabuddha even possible without a Buddha?
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:56 pm The awakening of the pratyekabuddha does not equal the awakening of a Buddha. It is of an inferior nature.
What I am asking is: how is the awakening of the pratyekabuddha even possible without a Buddha?
I don't think it is. I understand the whole pratyekabuddha phenomena, ie. a being who is enlightened by themselves without a buddha, is a limited perception which does not comprehend the complete scope. The pratyekabuddha did encounter a Buddha somewhere along the way and their development has evolved from that contact. Further, the pratyekabuddha simply does not recognize the incessant and ubiquitous encounters with Buddha.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

jake wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:43 pm
In your tradition, how would you describe this forth jeweled cart, the one pulled by a great white ox? Sorry to say, I remain rather ignorant of the specifics of the Tibetan traditions. (I also realize there are differing perspectives on what constitutes ekayana in Japanese traditions...)

jake
There is no "fourth" cart. There is only one cart, Mahāyāna, the practice of the six perfections which takes three incalculable eons. The jeweled cart drawn by the white elephant (not ox) is the result of Mahāyāna practice, buddhahood.

For example, the Lanka states:

"There are no other vehicles,
I teach only one vehicle;
but in order to guide the immature,
I explain different vehicles.


Candrakīrti observes:

"It is said ''There are persons for one vehicle and three,' but ultimately, there is only one vehicle. The teaching of Śrāvakayāna, Pratyekabuddhayāna and Mahāyāna is for the purpose of introducing sentient beings."

He then clarifies what this means for him:

Because there are no divisions in the dharmadhātu, those [three] were explained for introducing [sentient beings]. Ārya Nāgārjuna states:

Because there are no divisions in the dharmadhātu,
there are no divisions in vehicles;
the teaching of three vehicles
is for introducing sentient beings.

In that case, since the dharmadhātu is uniform, and because śrāvakas and so on do not differentiate the dharmadhātu, the vehicle is only one. Since there is traversing, there is a so-called vehicle, and because the absence of an entity of self of śrāvakas and so one are the same, there is one vehicle. Since this is traversed, it is a vehicle. Since they are equivalent in liberation, there is one vehicle."


Candra then goes on to point out that Yogacārins like Maitreyanatha regard the one vehicle teaching as interpretable and not definitive. He summarizes his statement however by stating, "As such, the character of the Mahāyāna is established as the Ekayāna." In other words, Candra defines the one vehicle from the standpoint of reality, the dharmadhātu, and since reality is one, the means of realizing it must all be the same.

In other words, for Madhyamaka, Mahāyāna is the Ekayāna, there is no Ekayāna apart from Mahāyāna. This is basically how the Ekayāna is understood in Tibet as well, since we are all Madhyamaka here, of the Prasaṅga variety, apart from some people that follow gzhan stong.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:56 pm

The awakening of the pratyekabuddha does not equal the awakening of a Buddha. It is of an inferior nature.
If this were the case it would mean the dharmadhātu had levels and grades. But as above, we can see this is false, which is why according to Candrakīrti, the liberation of śrāvakas, pratyekabuddhas, and buddhas are the same in terms of liberation.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm
The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
Yes, he is.

This thread should really be split into a thread called Ekayāna: controversies and continuities.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm If Ziporyn is correct, is this a different understanding from Queequeg's presentation? It appears to be.
No. Same.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pmI don't think it is.
Would it be fair to say that you think Nagarjuna is full of it? :shrug:
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm
marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:03 pm If Ziporyn is correct, is this a different understanding from Queequeg's presentation? It appears to be.
No. Same.
What is a Buddhayana?
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

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marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm
The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
Buddhayana is referred to as Sudden and Complete/Perfect/Round.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
marting
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

jake wrote:Sorry to say, I remain rather ignorant of the specifics of the Tibetan traditions.
As a side note, I don't know what is Tibetan in this discussion...did you mean to say Indian?
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Queequeg »

Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:44 pm
marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm
The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
Yes, he is.

This thread should really be split into a thread called Ekayāna: controversies and continuities.
Not positing a fourth. The three are upaya - the Buddhayana is taught in varying degrees of incompleteness in response to the needs of the beings.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
marting
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 pm
marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm
The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
Buddhayana is referred to as Sudden and Complete/Perfect/Round.
I feel to get over Malcolm's binary choice earlier, you created a fourth yana...
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:49 pm
Malcolm wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:44 pm
marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm

Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
Yes, he is.

This thread should really be split into a thread called Ekayāna: controversies and continuities.
Not positing a fourth. The three are upaya - the Buddhayana is taught in varying degrees of incompleteness in response to the needs of the beings.
To me, that is implying a fourth.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm »

Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:47 pm
marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:43 pm
The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
Curious also: are you positing a fourth? For the record I couldn't find "Buddhayana" in the index of the paper you linked to.
Buddhayana is referred to as Sudden and Complete/Perfect/Round.
Unfortunately, Queequeg generally retreats into Tien tai private language about this issue.

But suffice it to say that what Indians took one vehicle to mean, and its subsequent understanding in Tibet, and what is means to Tientai folk are not really commensurate.

For us, Mahāyāna itself is the one vehicle; for them the one vehicle is sudden, perfect, complete awakening, which as far as I know has never happened for anyone, anywhere, at anytime.
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Queequeg »

marting wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:45 pm
Queequeg wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pmI don't think it is.
Would it be fair to say that you think Nagarjuna is full of it? :shrug:
Nagarjuna is responding to a particular audience and offering a salve for their unique misapprehension.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
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