I noticed.
Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:49 pmNot positing a fourth. The three are upaya - the Buddhayana is taught in varying degrees of incompleteness in response to the needs of the beings.
You are: you are saying that the three vehicles are not complete, and that there is a fourth which is.
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
LOL. Not retreating - s/he asked a question about a term and I was providing an answer. Buddhayana, Bodhisattvayana are from the Lotus.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:51 pmUnfortunately, Queequeg generally retreats into Tien tai private language about this issue.
But suffice it to say that what Indians took one vehicle to mean, and its subsequent understanding in Tibet, and what is means to Tientai folk are not really commensurate.
For us, Mahāyāna itself is the one vehicle; for them the one vehicle is sudden, perfect, complete awakening, which as far as I know has never happened for anyone, anywhere, at anytime.
As for the rest, we all have our opinions.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
No. The three are conventions, upaya. There is one complete vehicle.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:52 pm
You are: you are saying that the three vehicles are not complete, and that there is a fourth which is.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
So, you tell me, what is it then?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Yes, it is called Mahāyāna, which leads full buddhahood; and that takes three asamkheyakalpas to traverse, unless of course one practices secret mantra.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Yes. But there are teachings under the Mahayana that, relatively speaking, are coarse compared to the saddharma. For instance, the gradual path of three eons. Notions that the Mahayana is distinct from the Sravakayana and Pratyekabuddhayana, or that there are icchantika. Mahayana that settles in emptiness.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
That's not answering my question.
Salve is whatever is needed to disabuse you of bias.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
You mean, Sudden and Perfect?
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Answer me, and I'll answer you.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
To my limited understanding, Madhyamaka does indeed disabuse one of bias.
Last edited by marting on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
No, I would never describe mantrayāna in those terms. Mantrayāna is not sudden, it simply collapses the path of a buddha from three incalculable eons into one, seven, or 16 lifetimes depending on diligence, based on its special methods, creation and completion stage. Hence, Mantrayāna, aka uncommon Mahāyāna, is distinguished from common Mahāyāna solely by its method, but not by its view.
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
Agreed. AFAIK, Madhyamika is just an analysis that undermines any effort to establish a self-existent dharma. Efforts have been made over the millennia to make it something more, and they are bound to be undermined by the very thing they're trying to build something out of.
In East Asia, Nagarjuna is understood as teaching more than merely Madhyamika. The commentary on the Prajna Paramita Sutra attributed to Nagarjuna is probably as influential, if not more so.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
But it too is just Madhyamaka.Queequeg wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:30 pmAgreed. AFAIK, Madhyamika is just an analysis that undermines any effort to establish a self-existent dharma. Efforts have been made over the millennia to make it something more, and they are bound to be undermined by the very thing they're trying to build something out of.
In East Asia, Nagarjuna is understood as teaching more than merely Madhyamika. The commentary on the Prajna Paramita Sutra attributed to Nagarjuna is probably as influential, if not more so.
Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More
I was being a little facetious.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 pmNo, I would never describe mantrayāna in those terms. Mantrayāna is not sudden, it simply collapses the path of a buddha from three incalculable eons into one, seven, or 16 lifetimes depending on diligence, based on its special methods, creation and completion stage. Hence, Mantrayāna, aka uncommon Mahāyāna, is distinguished from common Mahāyāna solely by its method, but not by its view.
For the record - Sudden and Perfect in Tiantai is not the same as the notion of Sudden and Perfect where someone is enlightened in a Eureka moment.
There is no suffering to be severed. Ignorance and klesas are indivisible from bodhi. There is no cause of suffering to be abandoned. Since extremes and the false are the Middle and genuine, there is no path to be practiced. Samsara is nirvana. No severance achieved. No suffering nor its cause. No path, no end. There is no transcendent realm; there is only the one true aspect. There is nothing separate from the true aspect.
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,
-Guanding, Perfect and Sudden Contemplation,