Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Queequeg
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:36 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:32 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:30 pm
marting wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:17 pm
To my limited understanding, Madhyamaka does indeed disabuse one of bias.
Agreed. AFAIK, Madhyamika is just an analysis that undermines any effort to establish a self-existent dharma. Efforts have been made over the millennia to make it something more, and they are bound to be undermined by the very thing they're trying to build something out of.

In East Asia, Nagarjuna is understood as teaching more than merely Madhyamika. The commentary on the Prajna Paramita Sutra attributed to Nagarjuna is probably as influential, if not more so.
But it too is just Madhyamaka.
Its not as stark (compared to MMK). Its not just dialectic. The middle is developed more instead of simply implied.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:45 pm

Which leads me to wonder...what is beyond mere Madhyamaka?

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Queequeg
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Queequeg » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm

If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:21 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:08 pm


You mean, Sudden and Perfect?
No, I would never describe mantrayāna in those terms. Mantrayāna is not sudden, it simply collapses the path of a buddha from three incalculable eons into one, seven, or 16 lifetimes depending on diligence, based on its special methods, creation and completion stage. Hence, Mantrayāna, aka uncommon Mahāyāna, is distinguished from common Mahāyāna solely by its method, but not by its view.
I was being a little facetious.

For the record - Sudden and Perfect in Tiantai is not the same as the notion of Sudden and Perfect where someone is enlightened in a Eureka moment.
Yes, I know. I respect the intellectual edifice that Zhiyi erected. But he makes historical assumptions I don't share.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:02 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm
If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature.
There is no middle.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:03 pm

marting wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:45 pm
Which leads me to wonder...what is beyond mere Madhyamaka?

Nothing, nothing surpasses Madhyamaka.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:04 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm
If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature.
I understand that Madhyamaka means "middle" already.

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:03 pm
marting wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:45 pm
Which leads me to wonder...what is beyond mere Madhyamaka?

Nothing, nothing surpasses Madhyamaka.
I think so too -- any alternatives would be merely more conceptuality.

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:13 pm

marting wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm
If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature.
I understand that Madhyamaka means "middle."
In general, it is the middle way between eternalism and annihilationism. But this does not mean there is something else between these two.


Whatever arises in dependence,
that is explained to be emptiness;
that is a dependent designation,
that itself is the middle way.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:13 pm
marting wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:04 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:50 pm
If all you have is madhyamika, I think the tendency is to be run into an emptiness pit. You have to return to the middle and allow for conventions, tentatively recognize dharmas, knowing their dependently arisen nature.
I understand that Madhyamaka means "middle."
In general, it is the middle way between eternalism and annihilationism. But this does not mean there is something else between these two.


Whatever arises in dependence,
that is explained to be emptiness;
that is a dependent designation,
that itself is the middle way.
Right, in terms of view I can't imagine anything more "middle" (or "centrist") than that.
Last edited by marting on Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:You have to return to the middle...
Makes me further wonder...who is returning and where is this thing/person/being returning to, and from where?

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Mantrik » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:06 pm

marting wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:You have to return to the middle...
Makes me further wonder...who is returning and where is this thing/person/being returning to, and from where?

I admit to being a bit (OK, very) dim when it comes to Buddhadharma, and have this daft idea that the mental continuum means we have no stable 'person' or any capacity to 'return' to anything. That was what was me writing about what was then and is not now and never will be again. :)
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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:21 pm

Yes, a bit of a rhetorical question. Without Madhyamaka reasoning, reifications just proliferate and get ridiculously out of hand.

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:38 pm
the white elephant (not ox)
Is this from the Nepalese LS?
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:13 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:21 am


Ekayana in the Lotus means that even when the Buddha teaches the the three vehicles he is actually teaching the one Buddhayana. Those on the sravakayana are taught arhatship and are aiming for arhatship; pratyekabuddhayana are aiming for pratyekabuddhahood; bodhisattvayana are taught a particular ideal of Buddhahood culminating after 3 eons of practice and they aim for that particular conception of Buddhahood. The actual goal of the Ekayana is not known within these paths. The Buddha is preparing them all to receive the Buddhayana. The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
That is a novel interpretation.
It just seems like Tiāntāi afaik. If it is horribly misinformed, I am similarly congruently misinformed, and me and Queequeg do not PM in order to synchronize our misconceptions. The only thing I might disagree with is "inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles".

The DDB is similarly misinformed in their definition of the Three Capacities (三階教):

1. capacity for practice of the ekayāna 一乘 teachings for those of superior capacity,

2. capacity for practice of the triyāna 三乘 for those who, while not of the superior capacity of the ekayāna 一乘 bodhisattvas, are yet capable of accurate discernment and discrimination of truth from falsity, and

3. no capacity, or rather the lowest capacity, the capacity for breaking the precepts and holding false views; the first two categories are called the 別法 biefa, teachings which distinguish or separate truth from falsity and the last category, the teachings for the beings of the third level capacity, are referred to as the 普法 pufa, the teachings based on the universal truth of all things as dharmakāya 法身, appropriate for those who, 'blind from birth 生盲 ' are unable to tell true from false.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by marting » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:18 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:21 am


Ekayana in the Lotus means that even when the Buddha teaches the the three vehicles he is actually teaching the one Buddhayana. Those on the sravakayana are taught arhatship and are aiming for arhatship; pratyekabuddhayana are aiming for pratyekabuddhahood; bodhisattvayana are taught a particular ideal of Buddhahood culminating after 3 eons of practice and they aim for that particular conception of Buddhahood. The actual goal of the Ekayana is not known within these paths. The Buddha is preparing them all to receive the Buddhayana. The Buddhayana is inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles, even the bodhisattvayana.
That is a novel interpretation.
It just seems like Tiāntāi afaik. If it is horribly misinformed, I am similarly congruently misinformed, and me and Queequeg do not PM in order to synchronize our misconceptions. The only thing I might disagree with is "inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles".
Are there four or three yanas in the LS?

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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 pm

marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:18 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm


That is a novel interpretation.
It just seems like Tiāntāi afaik. If it is horribly misinformed, I am similarly congruently misinformed, and me and Queequeg do not PM in order to synchronize our misconceptions. The only thing I might disagree with is "inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles".
Are there four or three yanas in the LS?
There is one.
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:19 pm

marting wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:18 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:13 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:24 pm


That is a novel interpretation.
It just seems like Tiāntāi afaik. If it is horribly misinformed, I am similarly congruently misinformed, and me and Queequeg do not PM in order to synchronize our misconceptions. The only thing I might disagree with is "inconceivable to anyone within the three vehicles".
Are there four or three yanas in the LS?
That seems to depend on whether you are Indian or Chinese.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:34 pm
I should add, that in Pali scriptures, ekayāna refers to the direct path.
One note of pedantry here: ekayāna is a Sinicism. It doesn't appear in Pāli.

Chinese translators read ekāyana in Sanskritic texts & mistranslated it as ekayāna (一乘).
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:34 pm
I should add, that in Pali scriptures, ekayāna refers to the direct path.
One note of pedantry here: ekayāna is a Sinicism. It doesn't appear in Pāli.

Chinese translators read ekāyana in Sanskritic texts & mistranslated it as ekayāna (一乘).
Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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