Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:34 pm
I should add, that in Pali scriptures, ekayāna refers to the direct path.
One note of pedantry here: ekayāna is a Sinicism. It doesn't appear in Pāli.

Chinese translators read ekāyana in Sanskritic texts & mistranslated it as ekayāna (一乘).
Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:20 pm


One note of pedantry here: ekayāna is a Sinicism. It doesn't appear in Pāli.

Chinese translators read ekāyana in Sanskritic texts & mistranslated it as ekayāna (一乘).
Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
Meaning son, the meaning.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:58 pm


Ahem:

Concentration means keeping the mind firmly centered in a single object — the direct path (ekayana-magga) — not letting it tip, lean, or waver under the influence of its preoccupations, whether good or bad, past or future; keeping the mind honest and upright.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... ength.html

Ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo = "This is the only way, O bhikkhus." Why did the Blessed One teach this Discourse? Because of the ability of the people of the Kurus to take in deep doctrine.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... wayof.html

Etc.
But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
Meaning son, the meaning.
The location of the placement of the macron is rather important. It determines the semantic value of the compound, or the meaning. For instance: ekayana with a macron on the second a is "one vehicle". Ekayana with the macron on the first a is not.
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:03 pm


But look at the placement of the macron in ekayanamagga.
Meaning son, the meaning.
The location of the placement of the macron is rather important. It determines the semantic value of the compound, or the meaning. For instance: ekayana with a macron on the second a is "one vehicle". Ekayana with the macron on the first a is not.
Somehow my reply did not take. It is more likely that the long vowel sandhi (eka ayana) was shifted when this term was translated from Prakrit to Sanskrit, i.e. Pali ekāyana -->Sanskrit ekayāna.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Feb 08, 2018 3:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:35 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:04 pm


Meaning son, the meaning.
The location of the placement of the macron is rather important. It determines the semantic value of the compound, or the meaning. For instance: ekayana with a macron on the second a is "one vehicle". Ekayana with the macron on the first a is not.
Somehow my reply did not take. It is more likely that the long vowel sandhi (eka ayana) was shifted when this term was translated from Prakrit to Sanskrit, i.e. Pali ekāyana -->Sanskrit ekayāna.
Does Mahāyāna literature that outrightly uses the word "ekayāna" cite the ekāganamārga passage full enough to be a direct quotation? Lacking that, if I may add a speculation:

I think it is also likely that ekayāna is a term in Mahāyāna and it is fortuitous that ekāyana sounds like it and some people may have saw it and made a connection with the older literature.

Now here is where I am deeply out of my element, so input with someone with good exposure to Buddhist literature in Sanskrit would be helpful:

AFAIK, ekayāna is also absent from expressly non-Mahāyāna texts, and by that I refer to śrāvaka texts. We only get ekāyana in Sanskrit afaik.

bhaviṣyatīti viditvā pañca ṛṣiśatāni śrāvastīṃ saṃprasthitāni |
098.007 teṣāmāgacchatāṃ bhagavatā ekāyano mārgo ’dhiṣṭhitaḥ
(Prātihāryasūtra)
eṣo 'ñjaso hu eṣa ca vai parākramas
tu ekāyano haṁsapatho yathā hrade ।
yam adhyagāc chakyamuniḥ samāhitas
tam eva cākhyāti gaṇeṣv abhīkṣṇaśaḥ ।।
ekāyanaṁ jātijarāntadarśī
mārgaṁ vadaty eṣa hitānukampī ।
etena mārgeṇa hi tīrṇavantas
tariṣyate ye prataranti caugham ।।
(Udānavarga 12 - Mārgavarga)
如無為、如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Malcolm
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Re: Monastic Tibetan Buddhists Fear Death More

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:29 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:38 pm
the white elephant (not ox)
Is this from the Nepalese LS?
no its my error, based on a hasty misreading of a secondary source in Tibetan.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

Post by Queequeg » Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:12 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm
According to your tradition it does, since there is only one vehicle and not three. In fact, Candrakīrti cites the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka in support of this verse.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 3:29 am
Indeed. However Zhiyi could not have read Candra.
How so?
Candra lived in the 9th century.
SMH
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:21 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:12 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm
According to your tradition it does, since there is only one vehicle and not three. In fact, Candrakīrti cites the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka in support of this verse.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:15 pm


How so?
Candra lived in the 9th century.
SMH
I’m right there with you. These posts make zero sense taken out of context and juxtaposed in this way.

SMH indeed.

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Queequeg
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Re: Do Buddhas have to die? 1 or 3 or 4 Vehicles?

Post by Queequeg » Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:40 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:21 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:12 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 9:55 pm
According to your tradition it does, since there is only one vehicle and not three. In fact, Candrakīrti cites the Saddharmapuṇḍarīka in support of this verse.
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:19 pm


Candra lived in the 9th century.
SMH
I’m right there with you. These posts make zero sense taken out of context and juxtaposed in this way.

SMH indeed.
Smh. Right back atcha.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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