To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

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Motova
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To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Motova » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:24 pm

To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:27 pm

This is the human realm. They don't, as far as I know.
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Losal Samten
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Losal Samten » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:34 pm

Vaibhashika - They exist under Mt. Meru
Sautrantika on up - Solitary mind-only realm

Edit - Although some ephemeral hell realm beings can co-exist with us
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by fuki » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:57 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:24 pm
To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?
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Malcolm
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:58 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:24 pm
To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?
They don't.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Motova » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm

I thought they could be reborn into chairs, tables, brooms, etc etc.... :shrug:
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Malcolm
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm
I thought they could be reborn into chairs, tables, brooms, etc etc.... :shrug:
Those are temporary hells, but the hells realms do not, according to Mahāyāna thinking, have physical existence.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Motova » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm
I thought they could be reborn into chairs, tables, brooms, etc etc.... :shrug:
Those are temporary hells, but the hells realms do not, according to Mahāyāna thinking, have physical existence.
I don't understand.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Malcolm
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:12 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm
I thought they could be reborn into chairs, tables, brooms, etc etc.... :shrug:
Those are temporary hells, but the hells realms do not, according to Mahāyāna thinking, have physical existence.
I don't understand.
Hell realms only exist in the mind.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Motova
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Motova » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:12 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm


Those are temporary hells, but the hells realms do not, according to Mahāyāna thinking, have physical existence.
I don't understand.
Hell realms only exist in the mind.
I still don't understand. :broke:
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Tiago Simões » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm
I thought they could be reborn into chairs, tables, brooms, etc etc.... :shrug:
Those are temporary hells, but the hells realms do not, according to Mahāyāna thinking, have physical existence.
I am also a bit confused by this one Loppön, what do you mean with "temporary hells"? Aren't all hells temporary?
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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Malcolm
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:31 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:27 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:01 pm
Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:59 pm
I thought they could be reborn into chairs, tables, brooms, etc etc.... :shrug:
Those are temporary hells, but the hells realms do not, according to Mahāyāna thinking, have physical existence.
I am also a bit confused by this one Loppön, what do you mean with "temporary hells"? Aren't all hells temporary?
The temporary (nyi tshe ba) hells are called "temporary" or "day hells" because they are solitary (pratyeka), and generally last for a very short period.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Mantrik
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:58 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:24 pm
To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?
I think your question is leading to some very narrow answers. Beings in another realm can't 'inhabit' ours, but we can interact with them. Some have no physical form, but we still interact with them.

Of course, realms, like other phenomena, are all in the mind, and for my money if we regard everything as illusory then it is all of equal reality too. If I am totally convinced a spirit has entered my world and interacts with me, it is real, and that personal reality is all we have.
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:58 pm

I think your question is leading to some very narrow answers. Beings in another realm can't 'inhabit' ours, but we can interact with them. Some have no physical form, but we still interact with them.

Of course, realms, like other phenomena, are all in the mind, and for my money if we regard everything as illusory then it is all of equal reality too. If I am totally convinced a spirit has entered my world and interacts with me, it is real, and that personal reality is all we have.
Here is a misunderstanding. There is a difference between all realms being made-of-mind and the Mahayana position of the hell realms (even within Yogacara thought). Most realms do share a physical environment (which is not to contest that that physical environment is manifest of mind):
Mahaprajanaparamita Sastra wrote: Hungry ghosts, animals, human beings, and devas,
According to their different perceptions
Perceive the same thing differently.
One should admit that their referent (yi; artha) is not a substantial reality (chen-shih, dravya).

In regard to phenomena of the past and future,
As in dream images or mirror reflections,
Although the object-support (alambana) is not real,
Still the marks of objects of cognition (visaya-lakshanas) are posited
But note the lack of hell-beings in that list. This is because the hell realms do not have a physical environment; they are a created space, manifest of the hell-beings' karmic habits.
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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by Mantrik » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:12 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:15 pm
Most realms do share a physical environment .....
Your quote does not provide any evidence of this. Examine what 'formless' means.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: To what extent do hell beings inhabit our world of physical objects?

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:17 am

something to consider,
when we raise the question of another kind of being occurring in our (human) realm,
that sort of starts with the premise that this realm that we experience has some kind of intrinsic reality to it
(as opposed to being emptiness, sunyata, devoid of any intrinsic substantial essence).
I prefer the term experience rather than inhabit to avoid constructing that very conceptual precondition.

Because of the strong karmic need to experience a solid "self", beings may perceive chairs, trees, or other objects to be their bodies, and suffer when those objects are damaged or destroyed. Of course, to a lot of people this sounds far-fetched and ridiculous, until you realize that this is precisely what we do with the elements, the carbon, salts, calcium, water, iron, etc., all the way down to the sub-atomic level, that each of desperately clings to as "me".

Humans have all the potentials of experiencing what other beings experience, which is why certain habitual clinging patterns can lead to that kind of rebirth, because, while there is nothing that can be identified as an intrinsically existent "self", there are what you might call, wheels that are set in motion. It's like an echo in a canyon: If you yell "Hellooo" into a canyon, the echo will reverberate the sound "Hellooo". Establishing certain causes produces results in kind.

If a person constantly practices greediness, always feeling as though they don't have enough, then even when they do, they remain unsatisfied. When causes manifest as the experience of a rebirth, then, even if that person is born into a wealthy household, mentally they will experience poverty.

A hell being might experience the human realm, if the causes for that result were planted in the past, like seeds that eventually sprout. But the realms themselves are empty of any self-reality. It's the mind of the being that establishes the experience of the realm.
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