Mind-streams: Separate?

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Snowbear
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Snowbear » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:31 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:22 pm


One flame lighting the next flame.
What, exactly, are we talking about with the flame?
Realization.
How is it passed?

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Astus
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Astus » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:55 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:00 pm
From whence wisdom?
To quote from the same book (p 77):

"Without the practice of wisdom, the first five of the six perfections cannot actually become practices of perfection. In order to cultivate such wisdom, you must first cultivate the genuine unmistaken philosophical view that is known as the view of the Middle Way, or Madhyamika."

Also, on the relationship between wisdom and faith (p 90):

"Unless the "child of noble family," or a practitioner, is able to develop the wisdom of special insight, generation of faith based on knowledge is not possible. Of course, a person can have devoted faith, but when he or she develops faith as a result of comprehending ultimate reality, it is supported by reason and knowledge."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:01 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:31 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:28 pm


What, exactly, are we talking about with the flame?
Realization.
How is it passed?
It is like a seal and wax. The guru teaches, the disciple hears. Though the guru's realization is not transferred to the disciple, the impression upon the disciple leads to that disciples realization.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Astus » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:15 pm
Nichiren studied under many Dharma teachers. Thus, your example is invalid.
So by the requirement for a teacher you accept any Buddhist teacher, even if the encounter is minimal and later one does not even (fully) agree with that person?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Queequeg
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:28 pm
The main problem with Yogācāra is that they are unable to account for how a conditioned consciousness transforms into unconditioned jñāna, hence Yogācāra is held by Madhyamaka to be a realist school.
Interesting. That makes sense, except that last part.

Can you expand on the nature of that problem?

And what is meant by "realist" here?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:15 pm
Astus wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:43 pm
Nichiren did not have a teacher who told him all he had then imparted on his disciples.
Nichiren studied under many Dharma teachers. Thus, your example is invalid.
This is also true. He was very fond of his first teacher, Dozen-bo, who actually never accepted his disciple's teachings, as well as his seniors at the first monastery he entered as a boy. Nichiren also studied extensively at Hiei-zan and throughout the Kansai region, possibly even Koya-san. I don't recall that he named any of his particular teachers, though.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:31 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:15 pm
Nichiren studied under many Dharma teachers. Thus, your example is invalid.
So by the requirement for a teacher you accept any Buddhist teacher, even if the encounter is minimal and later one does not even (fully) agree with that person?
You're making some assumptions here not supported by the underlying subject matter.

If this is a general question, that's another story. Just that this question is inapplicable if Nichiren is the subject you have in mind who you suggest had such indiscriminate encounters with teachers. That's completely unfounded.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Posts: 6153
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:55 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:00 pm
From whence wisdom?
To quote from the same book (p 77):

"Without the practice of wisdom, the first five of the six perfections cannot actually become practices of perfection. In order to cultivate such wisdom, you must first cultivate the genuine unmistaken philosophical view that is known as the view of the Middle Way, or Madhyamika."

Also, on the relationship between wisdom and faith (p 90):

"Unless the "child of noble family," or a practitioner, is able to develop the wisdom of special insight, generation of faith based on knowledge is not possible. Of course, a person can have devoted faith, but when he or she develops faith as a result of comprehending ultimate reality, it is supported by reason and knowledge."
All this is well and good, but none of it accounts for the source of wisdom. Hence, without wisdom, no wisdom.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Queequeg
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Queequeg » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 4:21 pm
Axes and their intersection are causes and conditions of the origin, are they not?
What does this statement even mean? Couldn't one say (with just as much validity) that point O is the source of the axes? If I remember correctly there is a type of dependent origination where the causes and conditions support one another like three sticks resting on each other to make a pyramid. Either way though: ultimately there is no axis and no point O to be found.
I can't remember the source - maybe its a zen parable.

The ignorant person sees a mountain. The learned person sees emptiness. The wise person sees a mountain.

:shrug:
You're talking about the parikalpita svabhava, or at best, paratantra-svabhava.
Can you please dumb this down for me?
So, the deluded person's conceptions have no connection to reality. The next level of understanding sees the dependent nature of dharmas. These are the first two natures, as I understand, in Yogacara. In both cases there is imputing going on. For the rest, see Malcolm's explanation about where I got things wrong.
I don''t even know what the Yogacara approach is, so I fail see how I can be the great defender of it.
Maybe you picked it up along the way without realizing it? Anyway, I'm not accusing you of being a champion of the yogacara... I didn't mean it that way. My bad.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Malcolm
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:51 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:28 pm
The main problem with Yogācāra is that they are unable to account for how a conditioned consciousness transforms into unconditioned jñāna, hence Yogācāra is held by Madhyamaka to be a realist school.
Interesting. That makes sense, except that last part.

Can you expand on the nature of that problem?

And what is meant by "realist" here?

It is an issue of transformation, in this case, their position has an inner contradiction. They are trying to account about mind can produce both samsara and nirvana. So the idea is that when the traces of affliction are emptied out of the ālaya, this causes the ālaya to effectively cease to exist, and the remaining mental skandhas transform into the four wisdoms which are now unconditioned. This is explained pretty well in teh Mahāyāna Samgraha.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Malcolm » Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:53 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:15 pm
Nichiren studied under many Dharma teachers. Thus, your example is invalid.
So by the requirement for a teacher you accept any Buddhist teacher, even if the encounter is minimal and later one does not even (fully) agree with that person?
Yes, because the conceptual view one learns is provisional unless or until one realizes suchness for oneself. Of course, for most people, their success in realization is indicated by the amount of hearing, reflection, and cultivation they do. Thus, people with little hearing have a much longer time on the path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Snowbear
Posts: 279
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Snowbear » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:36 am

What is wisdom, and how is it acquired?

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Malcolm
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:50 am

Snowbear wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:36 am
What is wisdom, and how is it acquired?


Prajñā, wisdom, is the result acquired from hearing the Dharma, reflecting upon it, and cultivating what was heard and reflected upon.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:40 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:31 pm
If this is a general question, that's another story.
It is a general one, not about Nichiren in particular.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Astus
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Re: Mind-streams: Separate?

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:18 am

Queequeg wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 10:33 pm
All this is well and good, but none of it accounts for the source of wisdom. Hence, without wisdom, no wisdom.
It does account for it: "cultivate the genuine unmistaken philosophical view"

The traditional triplet (DN 33): "wisdom produced by reflection (cintāmayā paññā), learning (sutamayā paññā), and meditation (bhāvanāmayā paññā)"

Malcolm summed it up nicely: "Prajñā, wisdom, is the result acquired from hearing the Dharma, reflecting upon it, and cultivating what was heard and reflected upon."

Asanga (Summary of the Great Vehicle, ch 8, BDK ed, p 92; elaborated on in chapter 3):

"For all bodhisattvas the cause is
The permeation of hearing [scriptural] discourse,
For nonimaginative wisdom is
True and correct reflection."


Summary of the relationship between the three causes (Abhidharmasamuccaya, p 188-189, tr Boin-Webb):

"How does one become [a person] dwelling in the teachings (dharmaviharin)? One does not become [a person] dwelling in the teachings only through the practice of listening (erudition) and reflection (srutacintaprayoga) without having recourse to meditation (mental cultivation) (bbavanam anagamya). Neither does one become [a person] dwelling in the teachings only through the practice of meditation (mental cultivation) (bhavanaprayoga) without having recourse to listening (erudition) and reflection (srutacintam anagamya). It is by having recourse to both, by living according to both, that one becomes [a person] dwelling in the teachings. What consists of listening (erudition) (srutamaya) should be understood by means of study, recitation and predication (udgrahayasvadhyayadesana). What consists of mental cultivation (bhavanamayd) should be understood by means of the practice of concentration (samadhiprayoga) and dissatisfaction (asamtusti). The practice of concentration should be understood by means of constant and careful practice (satatyasatkrtyaprayoga) and unperverted practice (aviparitaprayoga). Dissatisfaction should be understood by means of practice aimed at an [as yet] untasted (anasvadita) higher tranquillity (uttarasamatha)."
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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