Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

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KoolAid900
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Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by KoolAid900 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:22 pm

Does anyone know where I can find the complete description of the arguments for emptiness using the chariot? I recall hearing Nagarjuna detailing 10 or 11 fallacies in the ways we impute Svabhava onto objects like a chariot. This was my introduction to emptiness in a Buddhist class many years ago and would really like to reference it and study it more deeply.
:reading:

Thank you

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:01 pm

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

KoolAid900
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by KoolAid900 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:29 pm

Yes, thank you! That explains why I couldn't find it, wrong author. Now to pursue some elaboration on these points

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Grigoris
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by Grigoris » Sat Mar 31, 2018 6:55 pm

You will also find it in the Milindapanha in a teaching by Nagasena to King Menander in the chapter entitled "Questions on Distinguishing Marks".

There is also mention of it in the Vajiira Sutta.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Vasana
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by Vasana » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:20 pm

The rice seedling sutra is a vitamin worth taking when studying 'external' dependent origination / the emptiness of phenomena. The 8 metaphors of illusion can facilitate more understanding too.

http://xuanfa.net/buddha-dharma/tripita ... mba-sutra/
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Supramundane
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by Supramundane » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:02 am

this may be totally off base, but it seems to be that in western philosophy there is an equivalent which can be found in the discussion of 'George Washington's axe' and "Theseus' ship'. in these two examples the essence of the objects are questioned; for example, for the axe, i think there are several variants, but in the one i remember,someone tries to sell it at a hefty price and is asked if it is really George Washington's axe to which the owner replies, "yes, of course. it is his. well, i must admit we had to change the handle a few times over the years because it is made of wood and of course we also replaced the head which had badly corroded".

of course, the buyer is wondering (imagine Rick from Pawn Stars), as are you now, in what way shape or form is that really GW's axe?!

Theseus' Ship goes along similar lines.

The idea is to bring into focus the argument over essence vs. existence much like Nagarjuna's chariot, though for a different purpose.

In fact, these two examples could have been written by Nagarjuna himself; but then again i am not a student of philoposphy and so could be completely wrong.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by Wayfarer » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:30 am

I posted a thread on the other Wheel about Milinda’s Chariot. I expressed some doubt that ‘the Venerable Nagasena’ who tells the parable, really is just ‘a collection of parts’. Also I note that ‘the chariot’ in addition to being ‘a collection of parts’, is also a designed object which fulfils a certain function. The idea of the chariot therefore is not found among the parts, but without the idea, the thing wouldn’t exist.

I do believe that Nāgārjuna’s philosophy is not susceptible to such arguments but the Milinda Panha is a very early text - i recall reading that it is regarded as one of the oldest written texts known to history.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Grigoris
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by Grigoris » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:43 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:30 am
The idea of the chariot therefore is not found among the parts, but without the idea, the thing wouldn’t exist.
I which case "a chariot" is just an idea.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

haha
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Re: Nagarjuna and the chariot argument for emptiness

Post by haha » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:45 am

Chandrakirti's Sevenfold Reasoning is very profound to understand lack of inherent existence. It is the sutra way to introducing the emptiness. I remembered some master recommended to read it several months ago.

Please check out in chinabuddhismencyclopedia.com to find a compiled text on this topic. The Sevenfold Reasoning Chandrakirti
You can check "Chandrakirtis Sevenfold Reasoning: Meditation on the Selfessness of Persons by Joe Wilson". It is a small book with few pages.
Last edited by Grigoris on Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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