Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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MatthewAngby
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Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by MatthewAngby » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:03 am

960A6D8B-202A-4453-9A3D-4D12954D3816.jpeg
960A6D8B-202A-4453-9A3D-4D12954D3816.jpeg (213.99 KiB) Viewed 945 times
^ from this image above. I see that Geomancy isn’t available ... well afaik a lama told me that Feng Shui was a real thing. So why can’t they make their lives out of geomancy? Also, a lot of things that were included in the picture were based on the magic aspect of life. I am a person who strongly places my best interests in magic and know that magic and other spells or magical knowledge of the Supernatural world can be of help to some people ( white magic of course ). I do not understand why this is unacceptable if it can prove so much help to people. How about the divinations in the Tibetan Traditions? ( though I am not sure if that is a livelihood )

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pm

There are similar passages to the one you shared here in DN 1 & 2. There are also parallel passages in the agamas for example: http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T01n0021_001

The passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.

There is buddhism and then there is buddhism.

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Grigoris
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pm
The passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis » Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
There are also oral teachings, texts like the visuddhimagga, and tantric-like scriptures and practices, which are outside the Pali Canon.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:22 am

More up-to-date examples might be: avoid working in the arms trade, liquor trade, gambling and wagering industries, and so on (not to mention any illicit businesses). The guidelines offered by ethical investment agencies might be useful. Also Lew Richmond wrote a great book a few years back:

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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 am

Varis wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 pm
There are also oral teachings, texts like the visuddhimagga, and tantric-like scriptures and practices, which are outside the Pali Canon.
I said: THE BASIS.

And what do you think the Visuddhimagga is based on?

Give an example of the "tantric-like scriptures" found in Theravada Buddhism please.

Also an example of the "oral teachings" not grounded in the Pali Canon would be nice.

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Mantrik » Thu Apr 05, 2018 8:36 am

Fine line between 'reciting house protection charms' and a Lama blessing a place or making offerings.

It was clearly negligent of the scribes who wrote this list to omit 'forum moderator' or is that covered by 'reading omens and signs'? ;)
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humble.student
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by humble.student » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:03 am

'Contemplative' in this context refers to monastic practitioner, not layperson, let it be said.

Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:30 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 am
I said: THE BASIS.

And what do you think the Visuddhimagga is based on?

Give an example of the "tantric-like scriptures" found in Theravada Buddhism please.

Also an example of the "oral teachings" not grounded in the Pali Canon would be nice.

Thank you.
The Visuddhimagga still contradicts the Suttas.

Prior to the 1700s it was widely believed in the Theravadin tradition that enlightenment was impossible in the current age. In pre-modern Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos, mainstream meditation practices were a primarily oral esoteric tradition called "borān kamaṭṭhāna", sometimes referred to by scholars as "Tantric Theravada". This tradition became heavily marginalized by the modern vipassana movement in Theravada. The Burmese have their own Esoteric tradition aswell, but it unknown if it is related to borān kamaṭṭhāna. The Thai "Dhammakaya movement" is also a modern iteration of that tradition.

You should read the book Traditional Theravada Meditation and Its Modern-era Suppression and this article aswell:
http://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/in ... /9290/3151
Last edited by Varis on Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:33 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pm
The passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
That’s what they say.
Just like mahayanists like to say that mahayana accepts all the hinayana… How many commentaries on the agamas were written in china or tibet..?
As far as Theravada goes, like our friend pointed out:
Varis wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 pm
There are also oral teachings, texts like the visuddhimagga
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 am
Also an example of the "oral teachings" not grounded in the Pali Canon would be nice.
I’d also mention the mindfulness cult, vippassana, all the stuff about simply watching the mind without judgment, bare-attention, etc.

Take a look at SN 51.15

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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:35 am

Varis wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:30 am
The Visuddhimagga still contradicts the Suttas.
I'm surprised that you know that! It makes me wonder what your background is..

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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:36 am

Varis wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:30 am
Prior to the 1700s it was widely believed in the Theravadin tradition that enlightenment was impossible in the current age.
It still is now. One can only reach the stage of Arhat, not Buddha, according to Theravada.
In pre-modern Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos, mainstream meditation practices were a primarily oral esoteric tradition called "borān kamaṭṭhāna", sometimes referred to by scholars as "Tantric Theravada".
Was it a Theravada tradition or was it something that existed parallel to the orthodox tradition.
This tradition became heavily marginalized by the modern vipassana movement in Theravada.
You mean the Goenka mob? They are also not part of the official orthodox hierarchy/tradition.
The Thai "Dhammakaya movement" is also a modern iteration of that tradition.
Ummmmmm... The Dhammakaya movement is not a part of the orthodox Theravada movement. Actually, it is opposed by the official hierarchy.
You should read the book Traditional Theravada Meditation and Its Modern-era Suppression and this article aswell:
http://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/in ... /9290/3151
I will. Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis » Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:52 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:36 am
It still is now. One can only reach the stage of Arhat, not Buddha, according to Theravada.
I mean liberation.
Was it a Theravada tradition or was it something that existed parallel to the orthodox tradition.
It was the only mainstream Theravada meditation tradition prior to the 1700s.
You mean the Goenka mob? They are also not part of the official orthodox hierarchy/tradition.
No. The vipassana revival movement that began in the 1700s, which includes Mahasi Sayadaw and all the other famous vipassana teachers. To be clear, vipassana ceased to be practiced by mainstream Theravadins prior to the 1700s, monks gave up practicing because they believed the dharma had degenerated to the point where liberation was impossible.
Ummmmmm... The Dhammakaya movement is not a part of the orthodox Theravada movement. Actually, it is opposed by the official hierarchy.
I am aware. The Dhammakaya movement draws from the borān kamaṭṭhāna tradition, but it is not equivalent to it.

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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:23 am

Varis wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:52 am
It was the only mainstream Theravada meditation tradition prior to the 1700s.
I was unaware of this. Thanks for pointing it out.

borān kamaṭṭhāna: ancient discernment?

I am aware of all the cross-over stuff (especially with the Hindu Ramayana tradition and the pre-existing "animsim") in Thailand since I am a Muay Thai Kru. I was also aware of the post-colonial reformation of Theravada in general. But this is the first time I have heard of the boran kamatthana.

You learn something new every day.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:42 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:23 am
borān kamaṭṭhāna: ancient discernment?

I am aware of all the cross-over stuff (especially with the Hindu Ramayana tradition and the pre-existing "animsim") in Thailand since I am a Muay Thai Kru. I was also aware of the post-colonial reformation. But this is the first time I have heard of the boran kamatthana.

You learn something new every day.
Something like ancient or traditional meditation/practice, it's also called Yogāvacara.

There's a post on this blog about the subject as well: http://santidhammo.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... akaya.html

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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Grigoris » Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:52 pm

Varis wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:42 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:23 am
borān kamaṭṭhāna: ancient discernment?

I am aware of all the cross-over stuff (especially with the Hindu Ramayana tradition and the pre-existing "animsim") in Thailand since I am a Muay Thai Kru. I was also aware of the post-colonial reformation. But this is the first time I have heard of the boran kamatthana.

You learn something new every day.
Something like ancient or traditional meditation/practice, it's also called Yogāvacara.

There's a post on this blog about the subject as well: http://santidhammo.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... akaya.html
Do you know of anybody in Bangkok, Thailand that teaches these techniques? I will be there in late May for a Vesak conference and would love to come into contact with somebody practicing in this tradition.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:52 pm
Do you know of anybody in Bangkok, Thailand that teaches these techniques? I will be there in late May for a Vesak conference and would love to come into contact with somebody practicing in this tradition.
Unfortunately I don't. You should try contacting Professor Kate Crosby who wrote the book I mentioned above, that is her field of expertise.

Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis » Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:52 pm
Do you know of anybody in Bangkok, Thailand that teaches these techniques? I will be there in late May for a Vesak conference and would love to come into contact with somebody practicing in this tradition.
Looked into this further real quick:

According to this article:
https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/en/pub ... d22d).html

There is a lineage of this system being taught at Wat Ratchasittharam, Thonburi.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Apr 08, 2018 11:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pm
The passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
Perhaps Fortyeightvows meant to refer to EBT Pāli scripture based Buddhism vs Abhidhamma and Abhidhammatthasangaha and related medieval Abhidhammika commentarial literature.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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