Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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MatthewAngby
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Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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960A6D8B-202A-4453-9A3D-4D12954D3816.jpeg
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^ from this image above. I see that Geomancy isn’t available ... well afaik a lama told me that Feng Shui was a real thing. So why can’t they make their lives out of geomancy? Also, a lot of things that were included in the picture were based on the magic aspect of life. I am a person who strongly places my best interests in magic and know that magic and other spells or magical knowledge of the Supernatural world can be of help to some people ( white magic of course ). I do not understand why this is unacceptable if it can prove so much help to people. How about the divinations in the Tibetan Traditions? ( though I am not sure if that is a livelihood )
Fortyeightvows
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Fortyeightvows »

There are similar passages to the one you shared here in DN 1 & 2. There are also parallel passages in the agamas for example: http://tripitaka.cbeta.org/T01n0021_001

The passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.

There is buddhism and then there is buddhism.
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Grigoris
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pmThe passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Varis
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
There are also oral teachings, texts like the visuddhimagga, and tantric-like scriptures and practices, which are outside the Pali Canon.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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More up-to-date examples might be: avoid working in the arms trade, liquor trade, gambling and wagering industries, and so on (not to mention any illicit businesses). The guidelines offered by ethical investment agencies might be useful. Also Lew Richmond wrote a great book a few years back:

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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Varis wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 pmThere are also oral teachings, texts like the visuddhimagga, and tantric-like scriptures and practices, which are outside the Pali Canon.
I said: THE BASIS.

And what do you think the Visuddhimagga is based on?

Give an example of the "tantric-like scriptures" found in Theravada Buddhism please.

Also an example of the "oral teachings" not grounded in the Pali Canon would be nice.

Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Mantrik
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Fine line between 'reciting house protection charms' and a Lama blessing a place or making offerings.

It was clearly negligent of the scribes who wrote this list to omit 'forum moderator' or is that covered by 'reading omens and signs'? ;)
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by humble.student »

'Contemplative' in this context refers to monastic practitioner, not layperson, let it be said.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 am I said: THE BASIS.

And what do you think the Visuddhimagga is based on?

Give an example of the "tantric-like scriptures" found in Theravada Buddhism please.

Also an example of the "oral teachings" not grounded in the Pali Canon would be nice.

Thank you.
The Visuddhimagga still contradicts the Suttas.

Prior to the 1700s it was widely believed in the Theravadin tradition that enlightenment was impossible in the current age. In pre-modern Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos, mainstream meditation practices were a primarily oral esoteric tradition called "borān kamaṭṭhāna", sometimes referred to by scholars as "Tantric Theravada". This tradition became heavily marginalized by the modern vipassana movement in Theravada. The Burmese have their own Esoteric tradition aswell, but it unknown if it is related to borān kamaṭṭhāna. The Thai "Dhammakaya movement" is also a modern iteration of that tradition.

You should read the book Traditional Theravada Meditation and Its Modern-era Suppression and this article aswell:
http://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/in ... /9290/3151
Last edited by Varis on Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pmThe passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
That’s what they say.
Just like mahayanists like to say that mahayana accepts all the hinayana… How many commentaries on the agamas were written in china or tibet..?
As far as Theravada goes, like our friend pointed out:
Varis wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 10:07 pm There are also oral teachings, texts like the visuddhimagga
Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 6:29 am Also an example of the "oral teachings" not grounded in the Pali Canon would be nice.
I’d also mention the mindfulness cult, vippassana, all the stuff about simply watching the mind without judgment, bare-attention, etc.

Take a look at SN 51.15
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Fortyeightvows »

Varis wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:30 amThe Visuddhimagga still contradicts the Suttas.
I'm surprised that you know that! It makes me wonder what your background is..
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Varis wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 9:30 amPrior to the 1700s it was widely believed in the Theravadin tradition that enlightenment was impossible in the current age.
It still is now. One can only reach the stage of Arhat, not Buddha, according to Theravada.
In pre-modern Sri Lanka, Thailand, Cambodia, and Laos, mainstream meditation practices were a primarily oral esoteric tradition called "borān kamaṭṭhāna", sometimes referred to by scholars as "Tantric Theravada".
Was it a Theravada tradition or was it something that existed parallel to the orthodox tradition.
This tradition became heavily marginalized by the modern vipassana movement in Theravada.
You mean the Goenka mob? They are also not part of the official orthodox hierarchy/tradition.
The Thai "Dhammakaya movement" is also a modern iteration of that tradition.
Ummmmmm... The Dhammakaya movement is not a part of the orthodox Theravada movement. Actually, it is opposed by the official hierarchy.
You should read the book Traditional Theravada Meditation and Its Modern-era Suppression and this article aswell:
http://journals.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/in ... /9290/3151
I will. Thank you.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:36 am It still is now. One can only reach the stage of Arhat, not Buddha, according to Theravada.
I mean liberation.
Was it a Theravada tradition or was it something that existed parallel to the orthodox tradition.
It was the only mainstream Theravada meditation tradition prior to the 1700s.
You mean the Goenka mob? They are also not part of the official orthodox hierarchy/tradition.
No. The vipassana revival movement that began in the 1700s, which includes Mahasi Sayadaw and all the other famous vipassana teachers. To be clear, vipassana ceased to be practiced by mainstream Theravadins prior to the 1700s, monks gave up practicing because they believed the dharma had degenerated to the point where liberation was impossible.
Ummmmmm... The Dhammakaya movement is not a part of the orthodox Theravada movement. Actually, it is opposed by the official hierarchy.
I am aware. The Dhammakaya movement draws from the borān kamaṭṭhāna tradition, but it is not equivalent to it.
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Varis wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:52 amIt was the only mainstream Theravada meditation tradition prior to the 1700s.
I was unaware of this. Thanks for pointing it out.

borān kamaṭṭhāna: ancient discernment?

I am aware of all the cross-over stuff (especially with the Hindu Ramayana tradition and the pre-existing "animsim") in Thailand since I am a Muay Thai Kru. I was also aware of the post-colonial reformation of Theravada in general. But this is the first time I have heard of the boran kamatthana.

You learn something new every day.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:23 am borān kamaṭṭhāna: ancient discernment?

I am aware of all the cross-over stuff (especially with the Hindu Ramayana tradition and the pre-existing "animsim") in Thailand since I am a Muay Thai Kru. I was also aware of the post-colonial reformation. But this is the first time I have heard of the boran kamatthana.

You learn something new every day.
Something like ancient or traditional meditation/practice, it's also called Yogāvacara.

There's a post on this blog about the subject as well: http://santidhammo.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... akaya.html
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Varis wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:42 am
Grigoris wrote: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:23 am borān kamaṭṭhāna: ancient discernment?

I am aware of all the cross-over stuff (especially with the Hindu Ramayana tradition and the pre-existing "animsim") in Thailand since I am a Muay Thai Kru. I was also aware of the post-colonial reformation. But this is the first time I have heard of the boran kamatthana.

You learn something new every day.
Something like ancient or traditional meditation/practice, it's also called Yogāvacara.

There's a post on this blog about the subject as well: http://santidhammo.blogspot.com/2011/11 ... akaya.html
Do you know of anybody in Bangkok, Thailand that teaches these techniques? I will be there in late May for a Vesak conference and would love to come into contact with somebody practicing in this tradition.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Varis »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:52 pm Do you know of anybody in Bangkok, Thailand that teaches these techniques? I will be there in late May for a Vesak conference and would love to come into contact with somebody practicing in this tradition.
Unfortunately I don't. You should try contacting Professor Kate Crosby who wrote the book I mentioned above, that is her field of expertise.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

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Grigoris wrote: Sat Apr 07, 2018 7:52 pm Do you know of anybody in Bangkok, Thailand that teaches these techniques? I will be there in late May for a Vesak conference and would love to come into contact with somebody practicing in this tradition.
Looked into this further real quick:

According to this article:
https://kclpure.kcl.ac.uk/portal/en/pub ... d22d).html

There is a lineage of this system being taught at Wat Ratchasittharam, Thonburi.
"I have never encountered a person who committed bad deeds." ― Ven. Jìngkōng
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Re: Wrong livelihood for contemplatives

Post by Caoimhghín »

Grigoris wrote: Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:49 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:48 pmThe passage you shared comes from pali canon. The buddhism that the historical buddha taught in the pali canon is very different from the theravada and mahayana buddhism that we know.
Ummmmm... the Pali Canon is the scriptural basis for Theravada Buddhism. :?
Perhaps Fortyeightvows meant to refer to EBT Pāli scripture based Buddhism vs Abhidhamma and Abhidhammatthasangaha and related medieval Abhidhammika commentarial literature.
Then, the monks uttered this gāthā:

These bodies are like foam.
Them being frail, who can rejoice in them?
The Buddha attained the vajra-body.
Still, it becomes inconstant and ruined.
The many Buddhas are vajra-entities.
All are also subject to inconstancy.
Quickly ended, like melting snow --
how could things be different?

The Buddha passed into parinirvāṇa afterward.
(T1.27b10 Mahāparinirvāṇasūtra DĀ 2)
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