Collective karma

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shaunc
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Re: Collective karma

Post by shaunc » Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am

At the moment in South Africa there's political parties calling for the killing of white people. Considering white South Africa's previous treatment of black people couldn't this be a case of collective karma ripening.

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:00 pm

shaunc wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am
At the moment in South Africa there's political parties calling for the killing of white people. Considering white South Africa's previous treatment of black people couldn't this be a case of collective karma ripening.
It rather sounds like anger.

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
(Dhp 1.3)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Grigoris
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:13 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:00 pm
shaunc wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am
At the moment in South Africa there's political parties calling for the killing of white people. Considering white South Africa's previous treatment of black people couldn't this be a case of collective karma ripening.
It rather sounds like anger.

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
(Dhp 1.3)
Indeed. The actions of white people in the past is ripening as anger against them. The anger of the African people in the present will ripen as...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:13 pm
The actions of white people in the past is ripening as anger against them.
That is not karma. If one is angry with another, that anger does not hurt the other person, it hurts the one who is angry. Furthermore, the anger is not caused by the other person, it is generated by one's own thinking.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Malcolm
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:13 pm
Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:00 pm
shaunc wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 11:35 am
At the moment in South Africa there's political parties calling for the killing of white people. Considering white South Africa's previous treatment of black people couldn't this be a case of collective karma ripening.
It rather sounds like anger.

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
(Dhp 1.3)
Indeed. The actions of white people in the past is ripening as anger against them. The anger of the African people in the present will ripen as...
The anger, desire and ignorance of those people in less fortunate positions in samsara will lead to their lower birth in samsara if they act on it an carry out nonvirtuous deeds. Just as the anger, desire, ignorance of of people in more fortunate positions in samsara will likewise lead to their lower birth in samsara. However, the patience, compassion, and wisdom of people in less fortunate positions in samsara will lead to their higher birth in samsara, just as the patience, compassion, and wisdom of people in more fortunate positions in samsara will lead to their higher birth in samsara.

Karma is unerring. While one's birth in more or less fortunate places in samsara is a result of one's past karma, one's future place in samsara is assured by one's actions in this life. Thus, actions due to hatred, desire, and ignorance inevitably take one but one way: down.

Revolutions, punitive actions, as well as deliberate oppression, only lead one way: to lower realms.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Queequeg
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:46 pm

Here's a (stupid) analogy:

On long road trips, I often notice others in cars traveling in the same direction, at comparable speeds, and we might remain in the same pack traveling down the highway for hours. Even when the trip is broken up by a rest stop, we might encounter other familiar cars somewhere down the road. Eventually, though, we part because we are headed to different destinations.

The Buddha emphasized the importance of good friends, and the danger of evil friends. As I understand, its not that we share karma with our fellows, but I think its fair to conceive that beings have complementary karma - our friends influence our thoughts, words and actions. In social groups, certain ideas can be shared and amplified, expressing as speech and actions. We can influence each other to habituate thoughts, words and deeds. In acting out our karma, good and bad, others have complementary karma in the sense that when we harm others, those others were karmically inclined to suffer harm, and the same for helping others.

Its not collective karma, but there is a sense in which we collectively bear out our karma and enable each other to reinforce it.

What is remarkable is that we have the ability to alter our karma, and thereby have broad concatenating effects for our fellows, and vice versa.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Grigoris
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:50 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 pm
That is not karma. If one is angry with another, that anger does not hurt the other person, it hurts the one who is angry.
Yawn!
Furthermore, the anger is not caused by the other person, it is generated by one's own thinking.
Of course. And pain is not caused by stepping on a lego block, it is your nervous system (body's reaction) leading to suffering (your mind's reaction) and had nothing to do with the lego block at all. not in the slightest.

We all live in a completely sealed and self-enclosed vacuum after all. :roll:

I mean, I am not writing this, this is all a figment of Astus's overactive imagination, there is no existence outside of that.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Queequeg
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Queequeg » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:53 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:50 pm
I mean, I am not writing this, this is all a figment of Astus's overactive imagination, there is no existence outside of that.
Astus, can you please reimagine me? Some things need improving.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Grigoris
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:53 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:59 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:13 pm
Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 1:00 pm


It rather sounds like anger.

"He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me." Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.
(Dhp 1.3)
Indeed. The actions of white people in the past is ripening as anger against them. The anger of the African people in the present will ripen as...
The anger, desire and ignorance of those people in less fortunate positions in samsara will lead to their lower birth in samsara if they act on it an carry out nonvirtuous deeds. Just as the anger, desire, ignorance of of people in more fortunate positions in samsara will likewise lead to their lower birth in samsara. However, the patience, compassion, and wisdom of people in less fortunate positions in samsara will lead to their higher birth in samsara, just as the patience, compassion, and wisdom of people in more fortunate positions in samsara will lead to their higher birth in samsara.

Karma is unerring. While one's birth in more or less fortunate places in samsara is a result of one's past karma, one's future place in samsara is assured by one's actions in this life. Thus, actions due to hatred, desire, and ignorance inevitably take one but one way: down.

Revolutions, punitive actions, as well as deliberate oppression, only lead one way: to lower realms.
Thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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cyril
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Re: Collective karma

Post by cyril » Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Revolutions, punitive actions, as well as deliberate oppression, only lead one way: to lower realms.
What about the underlying intention? What if one leads a revolution out of genuine love for his suffering fellow men?

"...When I think of all the misfortunes in life that lie in wait for a man, of the fact that a man is so often deprived of all he is most attached to, my thoughts again tell me that in life one has to love with all one’s heart and soul that which is not transitory, that which cannot be taken away from a man and thanks to which his attachment to individuals and things becomes possible....Love for suffering, oppressed mankind, the eternal longing in the heart of everyone for beauty and happiness, strength and harmony, urges us to seek a way out and to find salvation here, in life itself, and shows us the way out." - fragment from a letter of Felix Dzerzhinsky.

Yup, that Dzerzhinsky. So what about a guy like him who, while definitely blinded by ignorance, is nevertheless driven by a genuine compassion?
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

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Malcolm
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Malcolm » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:40 pm

cyril wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:59 pm

Revolutions, punitive actions, as well as deliberate oppression, only lead one way: to lower realms.
What about the underlying intention? What if one leads a revolution out of genuine love for his suffering fellow men?

"...When I think of all the misfortunes in life that lie in wait for a man, of the fact that a man is so often deprived of all he is most attached to, my thoughts again tell me that in life one has to love with all one’s heart and soul that which is not transitory, that which cannot be taken away from a man and thanks to which his attachment to individuals and things becomes possible....Love for suffering, oppressed mankind, the eternal longing in the heart of everyone for beauty and happiness, strength and harmony, urges us to seek a way out and to find salvation here, in life itself, and shows us the way out." - fragment from a letter of Felix Dzerzhinsky.

Yup, that Dzerzhinsky. So what about a guy like him who, while definitely blinded by ignorance, is nevertheless driven by a genuine compassion?
Non-virtuous deeds of voice and body are driven by three things, malice, greed, or ignorance.

As St. Benedict observed, "Hell is full of good intentions."

Often people think they are acting out of compassion, when all they are doing is accumulating causes for birth in lower realms.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:40 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:46 pm
As I understand, its not that we share karma with our fellows, but I think its fair to conceive that beings have complementary karma - our friends influence our thoughts, words and actions.
We hear what we "want" to hear, and listen to those who say things that we like, that way strengthening how we are conditioned.
We can influence each other to habituate thoughts, words and deeds.
Every experience is defined by one's interpretation. That's how ignorance is the root of samsara.
In acting out our karma, good and bad, others have complementary karma in the sense that when we harm others, those others were karmically inclined to suffer harm, and the same for helping others.
Sounds to me like a possible justification of evil acts.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:50 pm
We all live in a completely sealed and self-enclosed vacuum after all.
"Since the Buddhas have stated
That the world is conditioned by ignorance,
So why is it not reasonable [to assert]
That this world is [a result of] conceptualization?"

(Sixty Stanzas of Reasoning, v 37)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Grigoris
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:48 pm

Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:42 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:50 pm
We all live in a completely sealed and self-enclosed vacuum after all.
"Since the Buddhas have stated
That the world is conditioned by ignorance,
So why is it not reasonable [to assert]
That this world is [a result of] conceptualization?"

(Sixty Stanzas of Reasoning, v 37)
I am not disagreeing with this, but it is a shared/consensual conceptualisation. We agree (and disagree) to work together to define the various aspects of it. It is quite clearly not 100% subjective, as you are asserting. If it was then me giving you a bloody nose would not effect you in any way whatsoever. But it does. You can decide to a degree (depending on your personal cultivation) what the effect will be and to what extent, but it ridiculous to say that we do not effect each other through the actions of our three doors, when we so glaringly obviously do.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:48 pm
it ridiculous to say that we do not effect each other through the actions of our three doors, when we so glaringly obviously do.
In other words, your view is that there are experiences that are independent of one's mental conditions (aka karma), that they happen to people because of sheer coincidence. Is that what you mean?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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DiamondMeru
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Re: Collective karma

Post by DiamondMeru » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:37 am

This thought occurred to me that as an American we are in deep trouble as a country if group karma is true. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are horrible events in history and history tends to repeat itself. It makes my blood run cold to think that this could be. If there is any evidence to refute group karma please let me know so I can sleep at night.

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Ogyen
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:53 am

Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:48 pm
it ridiculous to say that we do not effect each other through the actions of our three doors, when we so glaringly obviously do.
In other words, your view is that there are experiences that are independent of one's mental conditions (aka karma), that they happen to people because of sheer coincidence. Is that what you mean?
:jawdrop:
uhm... Left Field called and is asking how you jumped all the way over there... where did the "sheer coincidence" idea come into play from?

I understood Grigoris to mean that we effect each other because of our conditions, and our actions impact their conditions and the choices they make... hence if he punches me in the nose, I can choose to react or not, but my choice is completely conditioned to the event that just took place, and how I choose/react is my own karma through my own 3 doors, just as his was in punching me in the nose... so there are consensual conceptualizations which address the whole benefit or lack thereof of punching each other in the nose... because it's not 100% subjective, as we do affect each other's karma even though we are individuals making choices.

Did I completely miss/misunderstand a piece of this conversation?

re-reading again...

:reading:

EDIT: ok... i definitely missed something somewhere ... but can't find what...
Image Made from 100% recycled karma

The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Queequeg
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Queequeg » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:33 am

Astus, as he passionately argues, is not really conversing with us, so are you surprised he's wandering around in left field?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Queequeg
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Queequeg » Thu Apr 19, 2018 3:41 am

Astus wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:40 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:46 pm
As I understand, its not that we share karma with our fellows, but I think its fair to conceive that beings have complementary karma - our friends influence our thoughts, words and actions.
We hear what we "want" to hear, and listen to those who say things that we like, that way strengthening how we are conditioned.
If things were the way you say, there'd be no intelligible conversation between anyone. I think your idealism is a handicap. But, you know, I didn't really write what you perceived I wrote. That shade was in your head.
We can influence each other to habituate thoughts, words and deeds.
Every experience is defined by one's interpretation. That's how ignorance is the root of samsara.
So the Buddha's praise of good friends was my misunderstanding. He didn't really teach that. Of course.
In acting out our karma, good and bad, others have complementary karma in the sense that when we harm others, those others were karmically inclined to suffer harm, and the same for helping others.
Sounds to me like a possible justification of evil acts.
Every experience is defined by one's interpretation.
Indeed.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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Queequeg
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Queequeg » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:37 am

Not collective karma, but might be relevant.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/16/scie ... ealth.html
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

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