Collective karma

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:47 pm
So how does learning happen then? What is the role of a Buddha if, as you posit, essentially there is no interaction and influence between beings?
"If one wishes to see the Buddha, then one sees him. If one sees him, then one asks questions. If one asks, then one is answered, he hears the sutras and rejoices greatly. He reflects thus: “Where did the Buddha come from? Where did I go to?” and thinks to himself: “The Buddha came from nowhere, and I also went nowhere.” He thinks to himself:
The three realms—the realm of desire, the realm of form, and the formless realm—these three realms are simply made by thought. Whatever I think, that I see. The mind creates the Buddha. The mind itself sees him. The mind is the Buddha. The mind is the Tathāgata. The mind is my body, the mind sees the Buddha. The mind does not itself know the mind, the mind does not itself see the mind. A mind with conceptions is stupidity, a mind without conceptions is nirvana. There is nothing in these dharmas that can be enjoyed; they are all made by thinking. If thinking is nothing but empty, then anything that is thought is also utterly nonexistent."

(Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 26)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:42 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm
We were talking about "coincidence" in the way you had posited
I simply put forward the reasons why no coincidence can happen, but that both good and bad experiences are the products of one's karma.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:40 pm
"If one wishes to see the Buddha, then one sees him. If one sees him, then one asks questions. If one asks, then one is answered, he hears the sutras and rejoices greatly. He reflects thus: “Where did the Buddha come from? Where did I go to?” and thinks to himself: “The Buddha came from nowhere, and I also went nowhere.” He thinks to himself:
The three realms—the realm of desire, the realm of form, and the formless realm—these three realms are simply made by thought. Whatever I think, that I see. The mind creates the Buddha. The mind itself sees him. The mind is the Buddha. The mind is the Tathāgata. The mind is my body, the mind sees the Buddha. The mind does not itself know the mind, the mind does not itself see the mind. A mind with conceptions is stupidity, a mind without conceptions is nirvana. There is nothing in these dharmas that can be enjoyed; they are all made by thinking. If thinking is nothing but empty, then anything that is thought is also utterly nonexistent."

(Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra, ch 2, BDK ed, p 26)
Yes, ultimately. But at the relative level? That's what we are talking about when it comes to Nirmanakaya. It is obvious that sentient beings cannot be left to discover their true nature with their dualising/conceptualising minds if they are not guided, taught or shown how. It is why Buddhas teach. Remember?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:31 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm

This is a subtle change of subject and a definite twisting of my words and the context in which my statement is quoted. Also what you note does not contradict the spirit of what I wrote while quoting me out of context.
Idiot theory of karma is "tit for tatism": I raped someone in a past life, now in this life they will rape me.

Actual theory of karma is not deterministic but based on probability. If you have negative dominant karma and are born in a war torn country based on the criteria given above, your chances of having a short life and a violent death are increased exponentially.
THANK YOU. Determinism completely missed the point... We don't have castes in Buddhadharma... Right??
Image Made from 100% recycled karma

The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:40 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:31 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:16 pm

This is a subtle change of subject and a definite twisting of my words and the context in which my statement is quoted. Also what you note does not contradict the spirit of what I wrote while quoting me out of context.
Idiot theory of karma is "tit for tatism": I raped someone in a past life, now in this life they will rape me.

Actual theory of karma is not deterministic but based on probability. If you have negative dominant karma and are born in a war torn country based on the criteria given above, your chances of having a short life and a violent death are increased exponentially.
THANK YOU. Determinism completely missed the point... We don't have castes in Buddhadharma... Right??

No, we do not promote class in Buddhism, but we also do not ignore it. We accept as a matter of course, that people with positive karma are born more attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. People with negative karma are less attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. And of course, based on the mixture of karma we possess, we are all mixtures of these things; some people born into high positions in society are ugly, immoral, not so smart, etc. Others born into lower positions are attractive, long lived, moral, etc.

The position into which one is born is not a guarantee of future returns. IN samsara, one day a king, the next day a beggar. This is common.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:40 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:31 pm


Idiot theory of karma is "tit for tatism": I raped someone in a past life, now in this life they will rape me.

Actual theory of karma is not deterministic but based on probability. If you have negative dominant karma and are born in a war torn country based on the criteria given above, your chances of having a short life and a violent death are increased exponentially.
THANK YOU. Determinism completely missed the point... We don't have castes in Buddhadharma... Right??

No, we do not promote class in Buddhism, but we also do not ignore it. We accept as a matter of course, that people with positive karma are born more attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. People with negative karma are less attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. And of course, based on the mixture of karma we possess, we are all mixtures of these things; some people born into high positions in society are ugly, immoral, not so smart, etc. Others born into lower positions are attractive, long lived, moral, etc.

The position into which one is born is not a guarantee of future returns. IN samsara, one day a king, the next day a beggar. This is common.
So what you're saying also means that while it's acknowledged and accepted "as a matter of course", it's like points earned in a game of suffering, so it doesn't attach superiority to these conditions. The points will run out and back to scratch. Or even in a hell where it is really really hard to come out of.
Image Made from 100% recycled karma

The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Malcolm » Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:56 pm

Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:40 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:23 pm


THANK YOU. Determinism completely missed the point... We don't have castes in Buddhadharma... Right??

No, we do not promote class in Buddhism, but we also do not ignore it. We accept as a matter of course, that people with positive karma are born more attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. People with negative karma are less attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. And of course, based on the mixture of karma we possess, we are all mixtures of these things; some people born into high positions in society are ugly, immoral, not so smart, etc. Others born into lower positions are attractive, long lived, moral, etc.

The position into which one is born is not a guarantee of future returns. IN samsara, one day a king, the next day a beggar. This is common.
So what you're saying also means that while it's acknowledged and accepted "as a matter of course", it's like points earned in a game of suffering, so it doesn't attach superiority to these conditions. The points will run out and back to scratch. Or even in a hell where it is really really hard to come out of.
Higher stations have no moral value attached to them in and of themselves, unlike Hinduism, where being born a brahmin immediately confers social privileges categorically denied others; the only value of high stations and higher rebirths is the ease with which one will likely live one's life. But if someone has the karma to be poor, even if you give them a wishgranting jewel they will either lose it or have it stolen. Karma is unerring.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Ogyen » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:56 pm
Ogyen wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:45 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:40 pm



No, we do not promote class in Buddhism, but we also do not ignore it. We accept as a matter of course, that people with positive karma are born more attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. People with negative karma are less attractive, healthy, long-lived, intelligent, moral, access to wealth and so on. And of course, based on the mixture of karma we possess, we are all mixtures of these things; some people born into high positions in society are ugly, immoral, not so smart, etc. Others born into lower positions are attractive, long lived, moral, etc.

The position into which one is born is not a guarantee of future returns. IN samsara, one day a king, the next day a beggar. This is common.
So what you're saying also means that while it's acknowledged and accepted "as a matter of course", it's like points earned in a game of suffering, so it doesn't attach superiority to these conditions. The points will run out and back to scratch. Or even in a hell where it is really really hard to come out of.
Higher stations have no moral value attached to them in and of themselves, unlike Hinduism, where being born a brahmin immediately confers social privileges categorically denied others; the only value of high stations and higher rebirths is the ease with which one will likely live one's life. But if someone has the karma to be poor, even if you give them a wishgranting jewel they will either lose it or have it stolen. Karma is unerring.
I find this is so relieving.

My Brahmin side of the family is so moralistic around "the karma" and deterministic about what rebirth one will take due to their previous karma and what they have in this life. They did generate incredible wealth, and take this high ground based on their karma.

I have a little (emotional) button that gets pushed with that way of seeing things because it sets a "no escape" scenario where the fatalism lies in "because you deserve this"... I don't handle that so well. It seems to go contrary to everything I know to be true. Which may be very little actually. And in fact sometimes it's talked about as "family karma" like they're so much better for being Brahmin and for the wealth, etc...

The Buddhist view is infinitely relieving, by comparison... I mean unerring karma still is a harsh mistress, but at least one can work with their own particular karma and exhaust, generate secondary causes for liberation and find benefit they can also bring to others....

Collective doesn't add up, how can you share karma.... At most you have have synchronized intention...? The individual nature of karma (per the terrific referenced cetana and karma Vipaka explanation provided earlier in the 3 points) is then due to the specificity of causality, which is different with every sentient being and with every relative condition...

:meditate:
Last edited by Ogyen on Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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The Heart Drive - nosce te ipsum

"To love. To be loved. To never forget your own insignificance. To never get used to the unspeakable violence and the vulgar disparity of life around you. To seek joy in the saddest places. To pursue beauty to its lair. To never simplify what is complicated or complicate what is simple. To respect strength, never power. Above all, to watch. To try and understand. To never look away. And never, never, to forget." –Arundhati Roy

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 pm
Yes, ultimately. But at the relative level? That's what we are talking about when it comes to Nirmanakaya.
It does explain the relative level being a product of the mind. In the case of ordinary beings, experiences are what a deluded mind imagines out of ignorance. The nirmanakaya that is seen by beings, it is called illusory, and it exists as the mistaken perception of deluded beings, who are, however, have the right level of merit to encounter a buddha in some form. Here is Mipham's summary for how the nirmanakaya can be understood:

"The appearance of bodily form is like the reflection of Indra, the resounding of enlightened voice is like the great drum of the gods, the pervasiveness of the knowledge and compassion of enlightened mind resembles a cloud, the various ways of displaying emanations resembles Brahma, the pervasiveness of wisdom is like the sun, the secret of enlightened mind is like a jewel, the secret of enlightened speech is like an echo, the secret of enlightened body is like the sky, and the deeds that benefit others are like the ground."
(Gateway to Knowledge, vol 3, 21.172)

Another explanation, from Jamgon Kongtrul's commentary on the Uttaratantra Shastra:

"Being of the nature of a [mere] representation,
the nirmana[kaya] is similar to the golden image."
...
"The nirmanakaya, which appears to all sentient beings in common, is like the golden image. Because of the power resulting from the realization of the absolute kaya, it has the effect or nature of appearing to the minds of the disciples as a mere representation of whatever form is suitable to train any of them."

(Buddha Nature, p 173)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:45 am

Astus wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 11:14 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Apr 19, 2018 10:14 pm
Yes, ultimately. But at the relative level? That's what we are talking about when it comes to Nirmanakaya.
It does explain the relative level being a product of the mind. In the case of ordinary beings, experiences are what a deluded mind imagines out of ignorance. The nirmanakaya that is seen by beings, it is called illusory, and it exists as the mistaken perception of deluded beings, who are, however, have the right level of merit to encounter a buddha in some form. Here is Mipham's summary for how the nirmanakaya can be understood:

"The appearance of bodily form is like the reflection of Indra, the resounding of enlightened voice is like the great drum of the gods, the pervasiveness of the knowledge and compassion of enlightened mind resembles a cloud, the various ways of displaying emanations resembles Brahma, the pervasiveness of wisdom is like the sun, the secret of enlightened mind is like a jewel, the secret of enlightened speech is like an echo, the secret of enlightened body is like the sky, and the deeds that benefit others are like the ground."
(Gateway to Knowledge, vol 3, 21.172)

Another explanation, from Jamgon Kongtrul's commentary on the Uttaratantra Shastra:

"Being of the nature of a [mere] representation,
the nirmana[kaya] is similar to the golden image."
...
"The nirmanakaya, which appears to all sentient beings in common, is like the golden image. Because of the power resulting from the realization of the absolute kaya, it has the effect or nature of appearing to the minds of the disciples as a mere representation of whatever form is suitable to train any of them."

(Buddha Nature, p 173)
We know that all appearances have the nature of illusion, but this does not mean that there are no appearances. We know phenomena are empty of self nature, but this does not mean there are no phenomena. You are confusing viewing existence "like a dream" with existence "is a dream". Basically you are denying relative truth.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Aemilius » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:28 am

Coming back to the original question, Vasubandhu defines and describes collective karma in an old thread, see : https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=77&t=10766
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:30 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:45 am
We know that all appearances have the nature of illusion, but this does not mean that there are no appearances.
Being illusion means it is conditioned by ignorance, it is distorted by mental habits, by karma. In other words, all beings experience what they project as the inner and outer world. That is why I say there is no shared karma, no mutual influence, rather the very idea that there are interacting beings is one of the core delusions.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 am

Astus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 10:30 am
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 8:45 am
We know that all appearances have the nature of illusion, but this does not mean that there are no appearances.
Being illusion means it is conditioned by ignorance, it is distorted by mental habits, by karma. In other words, all beings experience what they project as the inner and outer world. That is why I say there is no shared karma, no mutual influence, rather the very idea that there are interacting beings is one of the core delusions.
So we are not interacting?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 am
So we are not interacting?
We are interacting in our own minds. We each have the concept of communicating with another person, but it all happens within the scope of separate minds. Experience is individual, as there are no shared sense-fields, and the interpretation applied to experience is also individual.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:49 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:45 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 11:54 am
So we are not interacting?
We are interacting in our own minds. We each have the concept of communicating with another person, but it all happens within the scope of separate minds. Experience is individual, as there are no shared sense-fields, and the interpretation applied to experience is also individual.
Actually, Astus, the traces of other minds are sufficiently strong to generate appearances for ours. For example, the old women who meditated upon herself as a tiger caused a village to panic at the appearance of a tiger in their midst, etc.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Grigoris » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:43 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:45 pm
We are interacting in our own minds. We each have the concept of communicating with another person, but it all happens within the scope of separate minds. Experience is individual, as there are no shared sense-fields, and the interpretation applied to experience is also individual.
Ridiculous. of course there are shared sense fields, even if we experience them individually. When I walk into a room with you and switch on a light, it is not that the light sensed by my eyes is my light and the light sensed by your eyes is your light. There is light and each one of us senses it separately. According to your theory, if I switch the light on, only I will see it, since the "switching on" and the light are merely my mental constructs.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Collective karma

Post by Malcolm » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:49 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:43 pm
Astus wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:45 pm
We are interacting in our own minds. We each have the concept of communicating with another person, but it all happens within the scope of separate minds. Experience is individual, as there are no shared sense-fields, and the interpretation applied to experience is also individual.
Ridiculous. of course there are shared sense fields, even if we experience them individually. When I walk into a room with you and switch on a light, it is not that the light sensed by my eyes is my light and the light sensed by your eyes is your light. There is light and each one of us senses it separately. According to your theory, if I switch the light on, only I will see it, since the "switching on" and the light are merely my mental constructs.
Pretty sure what Astus means is that there are no shared āyatanas. Your eye is your eye, my eye is my eye. My eye object is mine, yours is yours, they are not shared in that sense, even if there is only one light in the room.

However, where he is incorrect is on the skandha level. The material aggregate is defined as all physical sense organs and AND objects made of the four elements.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Astus
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Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 1:49 pm
the traces of other minds are sufficiently strong to generate appearances for ours.
Such a possibility would mean that one could put thoughts into another's mind, and if that could happen, then one stream of consciousness could cross another stream and become one.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Astus
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Location: Budapest

Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:24 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:43 pm
of course there are shared sense fields, even if we experience them individually.
As Malcolm said, what I meant was that things are experienced individually. What you see as light is not what I see as light. What you think as light is not what I think as light. Furthermore, you cannot even show me what you see, what you think.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Astus
Former staff member
Posts: 6859
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:22 pm
Location: Budapest

Re: Collective karma

Post by Astus » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:49 pm
The material aggregate is defined as all physical sense organs and AND objects made of the four elements.
There are both sense-faculties and sense-objects for all 6 sense-fields, and from their meeting arises the respective sense-consciousnesses. Or this can be looked at from the experiential perspective, where there are sense-consciousnesses conceptually split into faculties and objects.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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