Tonglen question

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javier.espinoza.t
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Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am

Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
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Virgo
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Virgo » Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
No. No one can experience the karma of another, even if you pray for it or apply tonglen. But nevertheless, even if the hardship of another did ripen on you due to your practice of tonglen, you should consider this wonderful. You can think that you truly removed their suffering.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon May 21, 2018 6:13 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
No. No one can experience the karma of another, even if you pray for it or apply tonglen. But nevertheless, even if the hardship of another did ripen on you due to your practice of tonglen, you should consider this wonderful. You can think that you truly removed their suffering.

Kevin...
But, how karma is purified then? has to do with recognize dharmadatu?
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Virgo » Mon May 21, 2018 6:20 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:13 pm
But, how karma is purified then? has to do with recognize dharmadatu?
If you do tonglen you do not purify the karma of another.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Josef » Mon May 21, 2018 6:25 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:13 pm
Virgo wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
No. No one can experience the karma of another, even if you pray for it or apply tonglen. But nevertheless, even if the hardship of another did ripen on you due to your practice of tonglen, you should consider this wonderful. You can think that you truly removed their suffering.

Kevin...
But, how karma is purified then? has to do with recognize dharmadatu?
Karma is purified through bodhicitta. By experiencing it via another, whether that be through tonglen, teaching, or some other upaya we then cultivate bodhicitta ourselves. Through the aspiration, application, and ultimate aspects of bodhicitta ordinary beings becomes realized.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Miroku » Mon May 21, 2018 11:24 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
Hi, sorry this is kinda off topic-ish, but would it be possible for you to share instructions which you ahve used in your tonglen practice, or a book? I am quite interested in trying tonglen.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Aryjna » Mon May 21, 2018 11:43 pm

Miroku wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:24 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
Hi, sorry this is kinda off topic-ish, but would it be possible for you to share instructions which you ahve used in your tonglen practice, or a book? I am quite interested in trying tonglen.
https://www.shambhala.com/the-great-pat ... g-667.html

https://www.shambhala.com/training-the- ... -1565.html

https://www.shambhala.com/start-where-you-are-1414.html

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 22, 2018 6:19 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:24 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
Hi, sorry this is kinda off topic-ish, but would it be possible for you to share instructions which you ahve used in your tonglen practice, or a book? I am quite interested in trying tonglen.
i really havn't received a method from a teacher, so i could only say something general:

once you start to take, you can became to understand "the whys" of the conduct of sentient being, stablize equanimity
once you start to give, you can have experiences like of dana and karuna, observe the paramitas
if you are familiar, you should try it thorugh a pacific deity also, inward and outward recitation, and it's seed as source and sink

:)
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Tue May 22, 2018 11:02 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:24 pm
Hi, sorry this is kinda off topic-ish, but would it be possible for you to share instructions which you ahve used in your tonglen practice, or a book? I am quite interested in trying tonglen.
See the instructions given to Garchen Rinpoche by his root guru, Khenpo Munsel Rinpoche, in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=16164

The quote itself comes from the documentary film on Rinpoche's life, For the Benefit of All Beings, and the OP has noted precisely when it occurs along with a link to view it. I highly encourage you to purchase the film here if you have any connection to the Drikung lineage generally or Garchen Rinpoche specifically (proceeds go to the Southwest Buddhafield Endowment Fund which helps keep Garchen Institute running long-term):
http://forthebenefitofallbeings.org

Someone on Scribd made it into a lovely little document which you can see here (note that you may need to sign up for a free trial or upload a document in return for downloading this):
https://www.scribd.com/document/2179830 ... he-Tonglen

Lastly, here's how Rinpoche says we can integrate the OM AH HUNG vajra recitation into the practice of tonglen, courtesy of Drikung Dharma Surya center: http://drikungdharmasurya.org/2017/02/p ... m-ah-hung/
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 22, 2018 1:17 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?
Nope. Tonglen is part of the class of teachings known as mind training. Tonglen is basically about training compassion.
¿how can i be sure of it?
Ask your teacher.
i really havn't received a method from a teacher
Tonglen is not an academic pursuit. Find a teacher to give you instruction.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 22, 2018 4:48 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 11:02 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 11:24 pm
Hi, sorry this is kinda off topic-ish, but would it be possible for you to share instructions which you ahve used in your tonglen practice, or a book? I am quite interested in trying tonglen.
See the instructions given to Garchen Rinpoche by his root guru, Khenpo Munsel Rinpoche, in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=16164

The quote itself comes from the documentary film on Rinpoche's life, For the Benefit of All Beings, and the OP has noted precisely when it occurs along with a link to view it. I highly encourage you to purchase the film here if you have any connection to the Drikung lineage generally or Garchen Rinpoche specifically (proceeds go to the Southwest Buddhafield Endowment Fund which helps keep Garchen Institute running long-term):
http://forthebenefitofallbeings.org

Someone on Scribd made it into a lovely little document which you can see here (note that you may need to sign up for a free trial or upload a document in return for downloading this):
https://www.scribd.com/document/2179830 ... he-Tonglen

Lastly, here's how Rinpoche says we can integrate the OM AH HUNG vajra recitation into the practice of tonglen, courtesy of Drikung Dharma Surya center: http://drikungdharmasurya.org/2017/02/p ... m-ah-hung/
Woww
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue May 22, 2018 4:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?
Nope. Tonglen is part of the class of teachings known as mind training. Tonglen is basically about training compassion.
¿how can i be sure of it?
Ask you teacher.
i really havn't received a method from a teacher
Tonglen is not an academic pursuit. Find a teacher to give you instruction.
In fact Buddhaharma is not an academic pursuit at all, thank you Grig :)
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Grigoris » Tue May 22, 2018 5:31 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 4:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue May 22, 2018 1:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?
Nope. Tonglen is part of the class of teachings known as mind training. Tonglen is basically about training compassion.
¿how can i be sure of it?
Ask you teacher.
i really havn't received a method from a teacher
Tonglen is not an academic pursuit. Find a teacher to give you instruction.
In fact Buddhaharma is not an academic pursuit at all, thank you Grig :)
Sure. But there are some things that one can validly just learn. Tonglen, on the other hand, is about feeling.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by PeterC » Wed May 23, 2018 5:54 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:13 pm
Virgo wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
No. No one can experience the karma of another, even if you pray for it or apply tonglen. But nevertheless, even if the hardship of another did ripen on you due to your practice of tonglen, you should consider this wonderful. You can think that you truly removed their suffering.

Kevin...
But, how karma is purified then? has to do with recognize dharmadatu?
Some lamas have, in the past, made statements that seem to imply that you can reduce another being's suffering through performing tonglen. However those statements in context are a little ambiguous, as they could be talking about the attitude you need to have when practising tonglen intended for a specific audience at a specific time. I interpret them in that way.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed May 23, 2018 7:34 pm

PeterC wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 5:54 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 6:13 pm
Virgo wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:54 am

No. No one can experience the karma of another, even if you pray for it or apply tonglen. But nevertheless, even if the hardship of another did ripen on you due to your practice of tonglen, you should consider this wonderful. You can think that you truly removed their suffering.

Kevin...
But, how karma is purified then? has to do with recognize dharmadatu?
Some lamas have, in the past, made statements that seem to imply that you can reduce another being's suffering through performing tonglen. However those statements in context are a little ambiguous, as they could be talking about the attitude you need to have when practising tonglen intended for a specific audience at a specific time. I interpret them in that way.
hmm, but the skillful mean according to the audience doesn't imply that it is only a technique for developing empathy

mm ok, thank you, this is interesting
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by WeiHan » Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:42 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
The practice of Tonglen can sometimes "transfer" the suffering of another beings into oneself. There are story about a certain master ( I can't remember his name) who has an injured site on his body exactly where a strayed dog's body was thrown at with a stone. There are indeed a few such stories...

I think great masters have explained how karma was purified. Karma whether good or bad is akin to seeds. It grows into a plant when the right conditions such as sun light, water, fertile soil etc...are available. However, once the seeds are scorched, no matter what right conditions are fulfilled later, it will not developed into its fruits. In the principle of purification, the four opponent forces act in the process akin to scorching the seeds. thus, once the seeds are damaged, it will never grow into its plant. It is the same that good virtues can be completely destroyed with a moment of anger.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:08 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:42 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
The practice of Tonglen can sometimes "transfer" the suffering of another beings into oneself. There are story about a certain master ( I can't remember his name) who has an injured site on his body exactly where a strayed dog's body was thrown at with a stone. There are indeed a few such stories...

I think great masters have explained how karma was purified. Karma whether good or bad is akin to seeds. It grows into a plant when the right conditions such as sun light, water, fertile soil etc...are available. However, once the seeds are scorched, no matter what right conditions are fulfilled later, it will not developed into its fruits. In the principle of purification, the four opponent forces act in the process akin to scorching the seeds. thus, once the seeds are damaged, it will never grow into its plant. It is the same that good virtues can be completely destroyed with a moment of anger.
is like cleaning a memory or a trace in mind so that secondary causes don't arise as hostile? (in the "negative" karma case) this is most fascinating
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Josef » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:15 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:08 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:42 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 2:37 am
Hi all! ¿can karma be concretely transfered via tonglen?¿how can i be sure of it?

usually we say purify, but here one takes and gives. i felt really tonglen-ed once ( :rolling: yeah it is strange), when i went to see my teacher, so after years, i wonder if i can do the same.

cheers! :cheers:
The practice of Tonglen can sometimes "transfer" the suffering of another beings into oneself. There are story about a certain master ( I can't remember his name) who has an injured site on his body exactly where a strayed dog's body was thrown at with a stone. There are indeed a few such stories...

I think great masters have explained how karma was purified. Karma whether good or bad is akin to seeds. It grows into a plant when the right conditions such as sun light, water, fertile soil etc...are available. However, once the seeds are scorched, no matter what right conditions are fulfilled later, it will not developed into its fruits. In the principle of purification, the four opponent forces act in the process akin to scorching the seeds. thus, once the seeds are damaged, it will never grow into its plant. It is the same that good virtues can be completely destroyed with a moment of anger.
is like cleaning a memory or a trace in mind so that secondary causes don't arise as hostile? (in the "negative" karma case) this is most fascinating
There will be no perception of them being hostile etc.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

WeiHan
Posts: 494
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Tonglen question

Post by WeiHan » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:52 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:08 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:42 pm

I think great masters have explained how karma was purified. Karma whether good or bad is akin to seeds. It grows into a plant when the right conditions such as sun light, water, fertile soil etc...are available. However, once the seeds are scorched, no matter what right conditions are fulfilled later, it will not developed into its fruits. In the principle of purification, the four opponent forces act in the process akin to scorching the seeds. thus, once the seeds are damaged, it will never grow into its plant. It is the same that good virtues can be completely destroyed with a moment of anger.
is like cleaning a memory or a trace in mind so that secondary causes don't arise as hostile? (in the "negative" karma case) this is most fascinating
I am not sure if I have understood you correctly. In one of your post, you mentioned that realising Dharmadhatu eradicates all negative karma. I guess almost everybody will agree with you. But most of us will not be able to realise emptiness so soon. My point in the post above is that even relative antidotes such regret, remorse, compassion etc can "damaged" the negative karmic seeds. If I read you correctly, regarding cleansing the mind, you are correct that I have read teaching about mind conditions the ripening of karmic seeds...so if we have a peaceful, kind mind, it does helps in delaying or preventing negative karmic seeds from ripening.

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