Tonglen question

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Empty Desire
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Empty Desire » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:13 am

Garchen Rinpoche taught Tonglen in Poland last weekend.

It is still available on the Facebook page at the end of Yamantaka Teachings Part Two.
No Beginning, No End, Just Mind......

Attachment's True Face is Aversion....

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Empty Desire
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Empty Desire » Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:16 am

No Beginning, No End, Just Mind......

Attachment's True Face is Aversion....

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passel
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by passel » Wed Aug 29, 2018 3:23 am

Arupajhana7 wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:03 pm
I have a question about ethics in tonglen.

I have been practicing tonglen for a few years now. I just recently was talking to a friend who said that in his Reiki training he learned that it was not ethical to do energetic healing on someone from whom you have not received permission to do so.
This made a lot of sense to me. I have sometimes felt quite annoyed about people who pray for me to find Jesus. He said it is the same idea behind that.

This got me thinking... Is there a possible ethical issue in my practicing tonglen for others from whom I have never asked permission?
Don't worry about it- tonglen is part of lojong (mind training). Your friend is working in a different paradigm that doesn't translate. Besides, what does he know? Tonglen is between you and your buddha nature.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

ChagnaDorje
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by ChagnaDorje » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:32 pm

My Lama from Jonang tradition teach that you must dissolve all the air, that inhaled. If you don't dissolve it, this can produce some problems.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:07 pm

ChagnaDorje wrote:
Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:32 pm
My Lama from Jonang tradition teach that you must dissolve all the air, that inhaled. If you don't dissolve it, this can produce some problems.
I learned that one shouldrecognize general "impurities" in their real condition, this is called dharmadhatu I remember, and specifically lead the consideration of them, as smoke, etc. any support, towards one's central channel (which can "purify" anything) or the seed if the case.

tongles is fun, I have had and still have a time learning it
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:25 pm

btw, what's tonglen origin? is it mahayana sutra or tantra?

or maybe shrvakayana? they also have empathy
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passel
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by passel » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:48 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Sep 29, 2018 9:25 pm
btw, what's tonglen origin? is it mahayana sutra or tantra?

or maybe shrvakayana? they also have empathy
Kadampa Mahaya, {so tantra- informed but officially sutra? it'from the Lojong- Geshe Chekawa's 7 Point Mind Training, so it's not exactly a commentary, it's like a comprehensive practice manual (mini lam-rim even?) based on oral instructions if I recall correctly- root text style, seems like a period when the pedagogy was shifting-

the line is:

"Alternately practice sending and taking; these two should ride the breath."

It's in section 2: Main Practice> Relative Bodhicitta> Main Practice

http://www.rinpoche.com/teachings/sevenpoints.htm

FWIW, in Indestructible Truth, Tara Tulku is quoted answering somebody who asked him what the most profound Vajrayana practice he knew was- he said tonglen. I think it's as profound as you make it. Bodhicitta is the core core practice even on the 9th yana and tonglen is a skillful way in.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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passel
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by passel » Sat Sep 29, 2018 10:52 pm

Earlier in practice, tonglen makes the distinction between the mind and body clearer, so there's a shamatha and vipasyana quality to it from the get go. It's also very good practice for post meditation mingling your practice. It's a profoundly social mediation that complements and supplements formal, isolated meditation.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:40 am

yeah, now I remember someone ecplaimed the same, it's from the original kadampa.

it's quite amazing that it's considered a powerful vajeayana practice, this mean that if mastered it can be something concrete and not only a mind training.

anyway, I consider this technique to be very important since it's effects on mind are so good. it is also good for training by confronting illnesses, sadness, depression, general poisons, etc. and to understand rapers, murderers, prostitutes, robbers, drug addicts, etc. to know all those things we in general don't want to, and also see if we are so perfect as we suppose hahaha

thx passel, the Tara Tulku reference is pretty encouraging.
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:05 pm

In the Compendium of Higher Knowledge it says:

What does it mean, “Actions determine your personal lot”? Because individuals experience the full maturation of actions they themselves have done, and because that [maturation] shares nothing in common with others, it is called “personal.”

Were this not the case, then karma could dwindle or become exhausted, or someone might receive evil consequences from acts committed by someone else. This is why the sutra says:

The deeds committed by Devadatta will not come to maturity in the earth or in water and so forth. They will come to maturity solely in his very own aggregates and sense spheres. In those of whom else could they possibly come to maturity?


Sgam-po-pa, Holmes, K. & Jinpa, T., 2017. Ornament of precious liberation, Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications.
Being without love would be the most appalling torment - the Inferno itself! [...] [A]ll those who have chosen the way of depersonalisation are unable to cry and [...] they have dry eyes for ever. For it is the personality which cries and which alone is capable of the "gift of tears".

Anonymous, Powell, Robert, and Hans Urs Von Balthasar. Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism. New York: Jermy P. Tarcher/Putnam, 2002.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:14 am

Karma Dondrup Tashi wrote:
Tue Oct 02, 2018 6:05 pm
In the Compendium of Higher Knowledge it says:

What does it mean, “Actions determine your personal lot”? Because individuals experience the full maturation of actions they themselves have done, and because that [maturation] shares nothing in common with others, it is called “personal.”

Were this not the case, then karma could dwindle or become exhausted, or someone might receive evil consequences from acts committed by someone else. This is why the sutra says:

The deeds committed by Devadatta will not come to maturity in the earth or in water and so forth. They will come to maturity solely in his very own aggregates and sense spheres. In those of whom else could they possibly come to maturity?


Sgam-po-pa, Holmes, K. & Jinpa, T., 2017. Ornament of precious liberation, Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications.
this is sutra view, no?

how purification can be then?
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by amanitamusc » Thu Oct 04, 2018 8:57 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Sep 30, 2018 5:40 am
yeah, now I remember someone ecplaimed the same, it's from the original kadampa.

it's quite amazing that it's considered a powerful vajeayana practice, this mean that if mastered it can be something concrete and not only a mind training.

anyway, I consider this technique to be very important since it's effects on mind are so good. it is also good for training by confronting illnesses, sadness, depression, general poisons, etc. and to understand rapers, murderers, prostitutes, robbers, drug addicts, etc. to know all those things we in general don't want to, and also see if we are so perfect as we suppose hahaha

thx passel, the Tara Tulku reference is pretty encouraging.
There is a clear explanation in the Precious Vace also.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Karma Dondrup Tashi » Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:46 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:14 am
this is sutra view, no?
[T]he method for the actual meditation session [practice], is to follow the Mahāmudrā system of instruction, letting the mind settle free from any effort to posit, negate, affirm, or reject. Tilopa says:
Not dwelling on, not intending, not analyzing,
not meditating, not rationalizing,
leave mind to itself.


Sgam-po-pa, Ken Holmes, and Thupten Jinpa. Ornament of Precious Liberation. Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications, 2017.

The palace - which is to say, the body - of the Buddhas is the body of Avalokitesvara; the speech of Avalokitesvara is the speech of all the Buddhas, and the mind of Avalokitesvara is the mind of all the Buddhas. Therefore, by actualizing the body, speech, and mind of Avalokitesvara, the body, speech, and mind of all the Buddhas are actualized.

Karma-chags-med, Gyatrul, and B. Alan. Wallace. A Spacious Path to Freedom: Practical Instructions on the Union of Mahāmudrā and Atiyoga. Ithaca, NY: Snow Lion Publications, 1998.

Immature beings suffer in a samsara that they themselves have created through a motivation of caring for self alone. Buddhas, motivated by their care for others and acting solely for the welfare of others, have attained enlightenment. Thus it says:
Immature beings act out of self-interest.
Sages act for the good of others.
Consider the difference between these two!
Therefore cast off self-grasping by understanding self-cherishing to be a fault. Treat others as yourself by understanding cherishing others to be a positive quality. The Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life says:
Through understanding ego to be faulty
and others to be an ocean of qualities,
cultivate a rejection of self-grasping
and a commitment toward others.


Sgam-po-pa, Ken Holmes, and Thupten Jinpa. Ornament of Precious Liberation. Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications, 2017.

The creation stage of deity meditation and mantra recitation are all complete within this as well. In the Hevajra Tantra it says:
No meditation, no meditator,
no deities and no mantra either;
within the nature free of conceptual elaboration,
the deities and mantras are truly present:
Vairocana, Akṣobhya, Amoghasiddhi,
Ratnasambhava, Amitābha, and Vajrasattva.
The Union with All the Buddhas Tantra says:
From a cast image and the like
a true union ( yoga) will not emerge,
whereas the yogi who strives excellently
in bodhicitta will actually become the deity.


Sgam-po-pa, Ken Holmes, and Thupten Jinpa. Ornament of Precious Liberation. Somerville, MA: Wisdom Publications, 2017.
Being without love would be the most appalling torment - the Inferno itself! [...] [A]ll those who have chosen the way of depersonalisation are unable to cry and [...] they have dry eyes for ever. For it is the personality which cries and which alone is capable of the "gift of tears".

Anonymous, Powell, Robert, and Hans Urs Von Balthasar. Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey into Christian Hermeticism. New York: Jermy P. Tarcher/Putnam, 2002.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by TrimePema » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:09 am

i'm not sure how much it matters whether or not negativities can be taken with tonglen or merit given.
the point is that it's a practice that can be done with bodhichitta to accumulate merit and once we are buddhas we can do much more than tonglen to take negativities and give liberation to all mother beings...

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:15 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:09 am
i'm not sure how much it matters whether or not negativities can be taken with tonglen or merit given.
the point is that it's a practice that can be done with bodhichitta to accumulate merit and once we are buddhas we can do much more than tonglen to take negativities and give liberation to all mother beings...
mm I see like "a few seconds of correct action is far better that a few thousands of years of good intention."

self accumulation of merit is like the accumulation of a self..

often I have this argue. if one is to be a buddha, how pretend to bypass being a boddhisattva?
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Miroku » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:22 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:09 am
i'm not sure how much it matters whether or not negativities can be taken with tonglen or merit given.
the point is that it's a practice that can be done with bodhichitta to accumulate merit and once we are buddhas we can do much more than tonglen to take negativities and give liberation to all mother beings...
We can liberate beings even now. We can liberate the homeless from hunger for a while when we give them our food. I think tonglen can expell negativities, why? Because it is like the spark that will make us more corageus to take an action just like a match can start a fire that liberates from cold.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
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You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Bristollad » Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:49 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:15 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:09 am
i'm not sure how much it matters whether or not negativities can be taken with tonglen or merit given.
the point is that it's a practice that can be done with bodhichitta to accumulate merit and once we are buddhas we can do much more than tonglen to take negativities and give liberation to all mother beings...
mm I see like "a few seconds of correct action is far better that a few thousands of years of good intention."

self accumulation of merit is like the accumulation of a self..

often I have this argue. if one is to be a buddha, how pretend to bypass being a boddhisattva?
if you "often I have this argue" with many different people then perhaps you need to check whether you are correct in your assumptions or that the way you are explaining your position is clear?

In this thread, you asked if through the practice of tong-len, we could actually take on the sufferings of others, but it seemed you already had decided the answer was yes before anyone answered. If you are already sure, why did you ask?

If even ordinary beings like us were able to take on the sufferings of others through tonglen then why is anyone suffering? Don't you think that the Buddhas and bodhisattvas would long ago have taken on all the sufferings of all sentient beings?

Tonglen is an incredible mind-training, training us in the courage, empathy and compassion necessary for us to develop great compassion and bodhicitta, and yes, to take action such as giving shelter and food to the homeless for instance.

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 pm

Bristollad wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:49 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:15 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:09 am
i'm not sure how much it matters whether or not negativities can be taken with tonglen or merit given.
the point is that it's a practice that can be done with bodhichitta to accumulate merit and once we are buddhas we can do much more than tonglen to take negativities and give liberation to all mother beings...
mm I see like "a few seconds of correct action is far better that a few thousands of years of good intention."

self accumulation of merit is like the accumulation of a self..

often I have this argue. if one is to be a buddha, how pretend to bypass being a boddhisattva?
if you "often I have this argue" with many different people then perhaps you need to check whether you are correct in your assumptions or that the way you are explaining your position is clear?

In this thread, you asked if through the practice of tong-len, we could actually take on the sufferings of others, but it seemed you already had decided the answer was yes before anyone answered. If you are already sure, why did you ask?

If even ordinary beings like us were able to take on the sufferings of others through tonglen then why is anyone suffering? Don't you think that the Buddhas and bodhisattvas would long ago have taken on all the sufferings of all sentient beings?

Tonglen is an incredible mind-training, training us in the courage, empathy and compassion necessary for us to develop great compassion and bodhicitta, and yes, to take action such as giving shelter and food to the homeless for instance.
mm no friend, point in the quoted answer is tangential to the thread issue. the point in the last answer is about if it's better to do something or to only thought something, action or intention only. quite an issue if I may say, controversial even.

I really doubt that tonglen is merely a mind training, I would like to know if it can be a tantric method, or if that's what it really is. I'm trying to find out if someone also has the same study in hands.

For sure buddhas are trying to take away sufferings, even if that sound strange now I think. I suppose that because we can't contact them directly is why we have buddhadharmas. if we could just contact buddhas directly we could go very very bad reinforcing misconceptions. Fact is that we people think we are so special when some sort of contact happens, so how to receive tonglen, or other things, then? seems counterproductive haha :P
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Re: Tonglen question

Post by Bristollad » Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:53 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 pm
I really doubt that tonglen is merely a mind training
And what is then the basis for your doubt? Which sutra or tantra have you read that says tonglen allows ordinary beings to transfer karma?

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Re: Tonglen question

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:53 pm

Bristollad wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:53 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:32 pm
I really doubt that tonglen is merely a mind training
And what is then the basis for your doubt? Which sutra or tantra have you read that says tonglen allows ordinary beings to transfer karma?
i'm asking, not sustaining. however cause of doubt are visible effects of it's application. I wonder how karma is purified also.
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