Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

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Temicco
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Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Temicco » Sun May 27, 2018 12:16 am

Are there any Mahayana teachings, sutra or otherwise, that discuss the matter of Shakyamuni stabilizing his awareness of his nature and bringing it to its full expression? This is a big part of Zen and other traditions, but I don't know of any teachings discussing it in Shakyamuni. Even with the idea of him having been a Buddha for countless eons, and merely "displaying" his awakening, you'd think that some teachings would account for whether he "displayed" the maturation process or not.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

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Astus
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Astus » Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 am

Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:16 am
Are there any Mahayana teachings, sutra or otherwise, that discuss the matter of Shakyamuni stabilizing his awareness of his nature and bringing it to its full expression?
Any account, description, or explanation of the bodhisattva path is that.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Temicco
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Temicco » Sun May 27, 2018 8:35 pm

Astus wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:18 am
Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 12:16 am
Are there any Mahayana teachings, sutra or otherwise, that discuss the matter of Shakyamuni stabilizing his awareness of his nature and bringing it to its full expression?
Any account, description, or explanation of the bodhisattva path is that.
Sure, but I am wondering about its relation to Shakyamuni in particular.

Also, sutras generally don't present the path quite like a tradition's own teachings do, to my knowledge.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

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Astus
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Astus » Sun May 27, 2018 10:02 pm

Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 8:35 pm
Sure, but I am wondering about its relation to Shakyamuni in particular.
The Jatakas tell many stories of his past lives. So do numerous sutras. I am unaware of any particular scripture describing Siddhartha's journey on the bodhisattva path in a systematic manner.
Also, sutras generally don't present the path quite like a tradition's own teachings do, to my knowledge.
The Avatamsaka Sutra is one of the main sources in East Asian Buddhism, as it is the basis of both the 10 bhumis and the 52 stages system.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Temicco
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Temicco » Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 pm

Astus wrote:I am unaware of any particular scripture describing Siddhartha's journey on the bodhisattva path in a systematic manner.
Okay.
Astus wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 10:02 pm
The Avatamsaka Sutra is one of the main sources in East Asian Buddhism, as it is the basis of both the 10 bhumis and the 52 stages system.
Yes, it just does not present things in the same way as vernacular teachings. e.g. Yuanwu saying "you grow nearer and more familiar day by day, and your state becomes secure and continuous", or Huitang saying how "only after [three years of effort] did I finally manage to accord with the principle in all events."

To my knowledge, sutras do not generally present a system where you alternate between equipoise and post-equipoise, and where equipoise becomes more stable with some work to stabilize it, and where you accord with the unborn more fully and operate more freely the more you cultivate the expression of your insight. These are all characteristics of vernacular writings. But, this is a secondary point anyway.

(It would be particularly neat if there were descriptions of Shakyamuni's bodhisattva cultivation from a vernacular POV, but I have a feeling there might not be any...)
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

krodha
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by krodha » Mon May 28, 2018 12:52 am

Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 pm
To my knowledge, sutras do not generally present a system where you alternate between equipoise and post-equipoise, and where equipoise becomes more stable with some work to stabilize it, and where you accord with the unborn more fully and operate more freely the more you cultivate the expression of your insight.
Apparently the Dasabhumika sūtra is one of the first texts that discusses equipoise and post-equipoise.

Temicco
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Temicco » Mon May 28, 2018 1:12 am

krodha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 12:52 am
Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 pm
To my knowledge, sutras do not generally present a system where you alternate between equipoise and post-equipoise, and where equipoise becomes more stable with some work to stabilize it, and where you accord with the unborn more fully and operate more freely the more you cultivate the expression of your insight.
Apparently the Dasabhumika sūtra is one of the first texts that discusses equipoise and post-equipoise.
Thanks for the tip; looks like I have a lot of reading to do. Can I ask where you heard this from?
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

krodha
Posts: 2440
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by krodha » Mon May 28, 2018 1:28 am

Temicco wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 1:12 am
krodha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 12:52 am
Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 pm
To my knowledge, sutras do not generally present a system where you alternate between equipoise and post-equipoise, and where equipoise becomes more stable with some work to stabilize it, and where you accord with the unborn more fully and operate more freely the more you cultivate the expression of your insight.
Apparently the Dasabhumika sūtra is one of the first texts that discusses equipoise and post-equipoise.
Thanks for the tip; looks like I have a lot of reading to do. Can I ask where you heard this from?
From Malcolm, I don't have a link to the exact thread.

He wrote in the same discussion:
  • There is a distinction between equipoise and post-equipoise which exists right up to the last moment of the tenth bhumi.

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Astus
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Astus » Mon May 28, 2018 10:44 am

Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 pm
Yes, it just does not present things in the same way as vernacular teachings.
The bodhisattva path describes how one grows in abilities, masters teachings and samadhis, and eliminates various hindrances. How is that any different?

Examples related to specific samadhis:

"To learn archery, a student has to practice for a long time to acquire the skill. Because of his longtime practice, he now shoots without using his mind, and all his arrows hit the target. I have trained in the same way. When I started learning the inconceivable samādhi, I had to focus my mind on one object. After practicing for a long time, I have come to accomplishment. I now am constantly in this samādhi without thinking."
(Sūtra of Mahā-Prajñā-Pāramitā Pronounced by Mañjuśrī Bodhisattva)

"One who wants to develop insight into true suchness should ponder that one’s mind in its true nature has neither birth nor death, nor does it abide in perception through faculties, such as seeing, hearing, and knowing. One should ignore the thoughts of differentiation. Then one can gradually pass the four samādhis of the formless realm—Boundless Space, Boundless Consciousness, Nothingness, and Neither with Nor without Perception—and attain the Samādhi of the Likeness of Emptiness. After one has attained the Samādhi of the Likeness of Emptiness, one’s coarse differentiation through sensory reception, perception, mental processing, and consciousness will not be active. From then on, one’s training and learning will be under the protection and care of beneficent learned friends who have great lovingkindness and compassion. As one trains assiduously, overcoming all obstacles, one can gradually enter the Samādhi of the Silent Mind. Once one has attained this samādhi, one can then enter the Samādhi of the One Action. After one has entered this Samādhi of the One Action, one will see innumerable Buddhas and will take wide-ranging and far-reaching actions, with one’s mind set in the Position of Firm Belief."
(Sūtra of Detecting Good or Evil Karma and Requital)

An example for the stages and practices:

"Good son, you should understand that all these stages are included in the four purifications and the eleven aspects. The four purifications are able to encompass the ten stages because the purification of superior intention encompasses the first stage, the purification of superior discipline encompasses the second stage, the purification of superior thought encompasses the third stage, and the purification of superior wisdom encompasses the excellences evolved in the subsequent stages. You should understand that [this purification] is able to encompass all the stages from the fourth to the last Buddha stage. You should understand that in this fashion these four purifications are able to encompass all the stages."
(Samdhinirmocana Sutra, ch 7, BDK ed, p 77)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Shakyamuni stabilizing his wisdom?

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon May 28, 2018 3:01 pm

krodha wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 12:52 am
Temicco wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 11:24 pm
To my knowledge, sutras do not generally present a system where you alternate between equipoise and post-equipoise, and where equipoise becomes more stable with some work to stabilize it, and where you accord with the unborn more fully and operate more freely the more you cultivate the expression of your insight.
Apparently the Dasabhumika sūtra is one of the first texts that discusses equipoise and post-equipoise.
Isn't the Daśabhūmikasūtra a chapter of the Avataṃsakasūtra? I haven't read either but I had always thought that was the case, for some reason.

Edit: it's chapter 26, Daśabhūmikaparivartaḥ
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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