Sambhogakaya buddhafields

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jhanapeacock
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Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by jhanapeacock » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:31 am

According to scholar Griffith, the sambhogakaya buddha fields are vijñapti or mere mental images, is this conception valid from a mahayanist POV?

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Aemilius
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Aemilius » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:21 am

Planet Earth is vijñapti according to the yogacara/cittamatra, see for example the works of Vasubandhu.
The three realms are merely mind, says Lankavatara sutra.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

pael
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by pael » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:20 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:21 am
The three realms are merely mind, says Lankavatara sutra.
That's relief.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

jhanapeacock
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by jhanapeacock » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:06 pm

My question is if sambhogakaya realms as per example Akanistha Gandavyuha, are considered to be actual places, or just metaphors for visual imaginery?

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Aryjna
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:39 pm

jhanapeacock wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:06 pm
My question is if sambhogakaya realms as per example Akanistha Gandavyuha, are considered to be actual places, or just metaphors for visual imaginery?
The place were we are now is not considered to be an actual place either in any case. As far as I know, they are as real as earth is.

Sādhaka
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Sādhaka » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:07 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:21 am
The three realms are merely mind, says Lankavatara sutra.

The three realms: desire, form, and formless, are still of the Nirmanakaya level aren’t they? Even despite the formless realms being ‘formless’?
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Aemilius
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Aemilius » Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:32 am

A common way to understand Sambhogakaya is to see it as a form-body that manifests in the dhyana realms, which are equal to the deva realms or the realms of form.

There are also deva realms that are in the desire realm, but which are higher than the human realm. For example the realm of Buddha Maitreya, which is in the Tushita devaloka.

Nirmanakaya is then a form-body that manifests in the desire realm (kamaloka), like the human realm.
Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya are both Rupakayas or form-bodies.

If you believe that samsara exists, which implies the existence of the deva-realms, why would you not believe that the sambhogakaya realms exist?
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Seeker12
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:07 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:32 am
A common way to understand Sambhogakaya is to see it as a form-body that manifests in the dhyana realms, which are equal to the deva realms or the realms of form.

There are also deva realms that are in the desire realm, but which are higher than the human realm. For example the realm of Buddha Maitreya, which is in the Tushita devaloka.

Nirmanakaya is then a form-body that manifests in the desire realm (kamaloka), like the human realm.
Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya are both Rupakayas or form-bodies.

If you believe that samsara exists, which implies the existence of the deva-realms, why would you not believe that the sambhogakaya realms exist?
This is basically my view as well. There's also an association at times with body being nirmanakaya/kamaloka, speech being sambhogakaya/rupaloka, and mind being dharmakaya/arupaloka.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

jhanapeacock
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by jhanapeacock » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:06 am

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:32 am
A common way to understand Sambhogakaya is to see it as a form-body that manifests in the dhyana realms, which are equal to the deva realms or the realms of form.

There are also deva realms that are in the desire realm, but which are higher than the human realm. For example the realm of Buddha Maitreya, which is in the Tushita devaloka.

Nirmanakaya is then a form-body that manifests in the desire realm (kamaloka), like the human realm.
Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya are both Rupakayas or form-bodies.

If you believe that samsara exists, which implies the existence of the deva-realms, why would you not believe that the sambhogakaya realms exist?
Well, actually because the sambhogakaya is not said to manifest in the dhyana realms, but beyond, according to the scriptures, the sambhogakaya place transcend the three realms, and the duality of existence and non exitence.

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Aemilius
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Aemilius » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:20 am

The problem is solved by there being worldly dhyanas and transcendental dhyanas.
The pure-realms (sudhavasa) exist also in the Sravakayana literature, they are inhabited by non-retuners and arahats. In the Sravakayana-abhidharma the pure-realms exist side by side with the realms of worldly dhyanas.
This scheme leaves out the realms of stream-entrants and once-returners, who would logically need their own dhyana-realms or kamaloka deva-realms.
According to the Lotus sutra, Lotus sutra believer will attain rebirth in the higher kamaloka deva-realms, where he will have an entourage of thousands of heavenly nymphs.
A female believer will probably attain the body of a male kamaloka deva. Buddha's mother was reborn as a male deva, (to whom the Abhidharma was preached.)
Buddhism isn't attached to one's gender, it doesn't see it as eternal or permanent, as is the case in an other religion.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Seeker12
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Seeker12 » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:27 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:20 am
A female believer will probably attain the body of a male kamaloka deva. Buddha's mother was reborn as a male deva, (to whom the Abhidharma was preached.)
Buddhism isn't attached to one's gender, it doesn't see it as eternal or permanent, as is the case in an other religion.
Although I can't say with certainty, I've heard and generally thought that above the Trāyastriṃśa heaven (33), there aren't actually two genders any more, so saying that one is 'male' is kind of not exactly the best as it implies that there are also females. At that point, the duality isn't present anyway.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

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Aemilius
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Aemilius » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:01 am

The male vs female distinction becomes gradually more refined and more subtle in the kamaloka heavens, there are four or six grades of this refinement. The teaching about the qualities of the kamaloka devas is found in the Abhidharmakosa of Vasubandhu, and in the Shurangama Sutra, it is also quite frequently mentioned, or referred to, in the Tantras.
In the Charles Luk's translation of Surangama Sutra it is in the chapter Six Heavens of the Realm of Desire (Kamadhatu), page 265..
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

Seeker12
Posts: 173
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Seeker12 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 3:00 pm

Aemilius wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:01 am
The male vs female distinction becomes gradually more refined and more subtle in the kamaloka heavens, there are four or six grades of this refinement. The teaching about the qualities of the kamaloka devas is found in the Abhidharmakosa of Vasubandhu, and in the Shurangama Sutra, it is also quite frequently mentioned, or referred to, in the Tantras.
In the Charles Luk's translation of Surangama Sutra it is in the chapter Six Heavens of the Realm of Desire (Kamadhatu), page 265..
Thanks, I appreciate it.

I've read the Khenjuk but should maybe get around to tackling the Abhidharmakosa at some point in my life.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:06 pm

No way. Total party.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:06 pm

Of face in the mirror woo hoo!!!
I got my Chili Chilaya.

jhanapeacock
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Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:57 am

Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by jhanapeacock » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:11 am

Aemilius wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:20 am
The problem is solved by there being worldly dhyanas and transcendental dhyanas.
The pure-realms (sudhavasa) exist also in the Sravakayana literature, they are inhabited by non-retuners and arahats. In the Sravakayana-abhidharma the pure-realms exist side by side with the realms of worldly dhyanas.
This scheme leaves out the realms of stream-entrants and once-returners, who would logically need their own dhyana-realms or kamaloka deva-realms.
According to the Lotus sutra, Lotus sutra believer will attain rebirth in the higher kamaloka deva-realms, where he will have an entourage of thousands of heavenly nymphs.
A female believer will probably attain the body of a male kamaloka deva. Buddha's mother was reborn as a male deva, (to whom the Abhidharma was preached.)
Buddhism isn't attached to one's gender, it doesn't see it as eternal or permanent, as is the case in an other religion.
The ghanavyuha sutta already mentioned the sambhogakaya place trascend the three realms.
Is a common believe that the akanistha of the sambhogakaya og min is not the same as the akanistha of the suddhavasa that is still in samsara.

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Aemilius
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Re: Sambhogakaya buddhafields

Post by Aemilius » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:24 am

Gandavyuha sutra is tells the story of the spiritual journey of the Youth Sudhana, who on his journey meets 54 enlightened teachers. The journey takes place in Jambudvipa, but it has many fantastic features, that we don't normally see nowadays in our world. The events on Sudhana's journey have been interpreted metaphorically and/or realistically in Buddhist history. The world in the past was not like we see it today. It contained many fantastic elements.
Anyway Buddhism teaches that samsara is empty of real or inherent existence. We must not grasp at samsara, or insist on its existence. Perfection of Wisdom sutras teach that Nirvana too is empty.
Highly recommend that you read the Gandavyuha sutra, if you haven't already. It is the 39th Chapter in The Avatamsaka Sutra, The Flower Ornament Scripture.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)

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