Buddhavacana - Round 84,001

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Coëmgenu
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Buddhavacana - Round 84,001

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:21 pm

SPLIT FROM "BUDDHISM ON ACTORS"
THE PERENNIAL QUESTION.
Queequeg wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:04 pm
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:23 pm
So are all the words we read in sutras strictly 100% Buddha's words or are there man made injections of agenda...??
Buddha Vacana = Buddha's Voice. All teachings that accord with the Truth, are the Buddha's teachings. This has been the standard to address questions about the authenticity of the teachings. The variety of teachings is also addressed by concepts such as upaya in Mahayana, particularly as explained in the Lotus Sutra. This has also been explained in, for instance, the East Asian context, through the Four Siddhanta, and in the Tiantai Context, the Four Teachings, Four Methods, and Five Flavors/Periods. The Mahaparinirvana Sutra, among others, explicitly asserts, All True Teachings are Buddha's Teachings.
The above is quoted from an earlier post in the thread. Included here for the sake of context.
Minobu wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:23 pm
So are all the words we read in sutras strictly 100% Buddha's words or are there man made injections of agenda...??
Consider: there are multiple recensions of the Lotus Sermon.

Forget the Lotus Sūtra for a moment, the sūtra is professing to be a sermon of the Buddha's. As in he allegedly said "this", so to speak.

There are multiple versions of the Lotus Sūtra. Just like there are multiple gospel-accounts of Jesus's life. Let that sink in for a moment.

So I return your question, are there man-made injections?

:spy:
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Buddhism on actors

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:24 pm

For that matter, I'm pretty sure the Dharmapada has at least 5 lines of transmission that all differ in their ways.

The so-called EBTs (Early Buddhist Texts) come in 3-4 lines of transmission that all differ in their ways.

Why do they differ? The answer seems obvious, to me at least.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Coëmgenu
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re: Buddhavacana - Round 84,001

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:57 pm

Minobu wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:23 pm
There are scholars that have ....{i am no expert in this and this is like foggy layman interpretation from stuff i read}....written that it is impossible for Sakyamuni buddha to have taught the Lotus sutra for it is in a language , pali or sanskrit or something that was not of the buddha...Some say it was written totally by some Persian dude....
I don't think any serious scholars would ever argue, knowing it is a foolhardy thesis, that the Lotus Sūtra is the fabrication of a single man, be he Buddhist, a Persian Buddhist, or a Persian Non-Buddhist, or any woman for that matter. It is definitely a Buddhist text. It is definitely a Mahāyāna sūtra. It also shows signs of extreme antiquity. It has dhāraṇī in Māgadhī Prākrit, a very old layer of language.

It also shows signs of elaboration. Things like descriptions of the Buddha's Pure Land and descriptions of places, locales, etc., for instance, become lengthened over time. This is only one thing that pops to mind, as I can look for the source immediately I think.

It's ultimately up to us to determine if it is plausible that the Buddha gave some sermon like this towards the end of his life. Some people think it is completely implausible that the 'historical' Buddha ever taught bodhisattvayāna at all.

It also begs the question: who is the Buddha, what is the Buddha? Once that is established, then "what is the Buddha's word" can be asked.

IMO
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

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Queequeg
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Re: Buddhavacana - Round 84,001

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:59 pm

When a great teacher passes away, there is that moment, "Now what?"

I've been reading texts that relate stories about the Mahaparinirvana and the First Council. Of course, they were all Arhats, except Ananda. In the stories, Ananda, because he is not yet exhausted, is able to embody the feeling of those who had not yet attained arhatship. He cries, he laments, he regrets.

I think there is another question that the disciples must address - do we carry on? And if we carry on, what are we carrying on? Some of the arhats on hearing the Buddha passed, themselves relinquished and passed, seeing no further reason to remain in the world.

Those that stick around, at first, they just keep the srarira - the ashes from the pyre, but also the words the Buddha left.

Inevitably come the questions that the Buddha did not resolve... at that point the community must decide, do we embody the Buddha and venture novel answers? Or do we ossify like the srarira, ignore the questions and try to carry on in the vessel the Buddha crafted? Or is there a spirit of the Buddha we can bring to life?

I think those issues contributed to the evolution and development of Dharma.

You can probably infer my view on the whether Buddha literally spoke everything they say he spoke.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Minobu
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Re: Buddhavacana - Round 84,001

Post by Minobu » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:22 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:59 pm

I think those issues contributed to the evolution and development of Dharma.

You can probably infer my view on the whether Buddha literally spoke everything they say he spoke.
first up thank you Coëmgenu for your incite and sharing it with us , even if it is a bit enigmatic and hidden...

I cannot live with falsehood...i know what i know and i know what i don't know...

I believe their are words by Buddha that asks us to question authority and everything for that matter..


i cannot blindly accept anything in regards to my spiritual and evolutionary growth.

it is up to us to make sure we are accepting truth in order for us to evolve.

to be honest, i've come to the conclusion after studying buddhism and all things "Eastern Thought " since i was a young lad and given allan watts to read when i was about 12 by my older brother.....I'm 63....
I leave it all up to a Higher Teacher....Some Being Thus gone or working pretty damn close to being Thus Gone...

I think i have enough worldly input on the subjects to sit back and just practice.....

carry on....

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