Mahamudra and Dzogchen

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Stiphan
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Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Stiphan » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm

What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they? Are they similar in a way?

Norwegian
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Norwegian » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:47 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they? Are they similar in a way?
They're both pretty cool, and really good (some might argue they're the best). They're both similar depending on how you view it, but also very different depending on how you view it, but ultimately they're both about the same thing, the attainment of Buddhahood.

You can read more here: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=28710

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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Empty Desire » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:40 am

I can recommend Mahamudra as a very nice daily practice.

Garchen Rinpoche is a good teacher. There are others also.

If you do Tantric Mahamudra you would need initiation. This would entail lifelong practice, Tantric Vows and various Samaya to be upheld. So is therefore a big decision!

It is a peaceful/spacious practice and an important element is the emphasis on Bodhicitta.

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Virgo
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Virgo » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:42 am

Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they? Are they similar in a way?
Stiphan you should read some books by Namkhai Norbu. He is one of my teachers, and I highly recommend his teachings.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxPcu7F7gWg

http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:07 am

Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they? Are they similar in a way?
Pretty good

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Vasana
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Vasana » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:53 am

Side note : Learn plenty about the 4 common foundations and samaya and what it entails before getting involved in any vajrayana path. Don't sidestep these since the success of the path depends on it.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

Miroku
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Miroku » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:06 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:34 pm
What is everyone's opinion of Mahamudra and Dzogchen? How good are they? Are they similar in a way?
They have the same view, however the path differs and fruit is basically the same (enlightenment) but Dzogchen has methods that lead to rainbow body.

Dzogchen starts with pointing out instructions, then you practice to really gain stability and confidence that what you discovered is rigpa and then you integrate it into your life.

For each of these stages dzogchen has many practices that are unique to it, like semdzins and rushens which are very useful for recognizing rigpa and training in it and also trekchö for stablizing rigpa and thögal which leads to rainbow body and great transfer. There are also different series of teachings, like semde which is very similar to how mahamudra is practiced, then longde that is more connected with gaining stability in the rigpa through various poses and practices, and also menangde in which we can find rushens, semdzins and trekchö and thögal.

Mahamudra is slightly different as there one usually works with shine and lhagtong to discover and continue the state of enlightenment.

Both Dzogchen and Mahamudra can be also practiced in the context of transformation practice during the desolution state and in both guru yoga is the most important practice.

Dzogchen can be also practiced as a standalone vehicle. Not sure about mahamudra tho. Both lead to enlightenment in one life.

And most importantly for both you need a teacher you can trust! So finding qualified teacher is the crucial point.

This is how I would introduce the topic. Please correct my mistakes I am not a scholar and have many wrong concepts especially when it comes to mahamudra.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Astus
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Astus » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:51 pm

"Depending on whether one is using the Mahamudra or Dzogchen approach, there are different terminologies, but the actual training is essentially the same."
(Adeu Rinpoche)

"Although the teachings on essence mahamudra and dzogchen of the natural state use different terminology, in actuality they do not differ at all. ...
As the great master Trangpo Terton Sherab Oser wrote:
Mahamudra and dzogchen
Differ in words but not in meaning.
In terms of ground, path, and fruition, ground mahamudra is the nonarising essence, unobstructed nature, and expression manifest in manifold ways. The dzogchen teachings describe these three aspects as essence, nature, and compassion."

(Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, in Lamp of Mahamudra, p xiii, xiv)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Matt J
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Matt J » Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:12 pm

Personally, I find Mahamudra MUCH easier to work with than Dzogchen. Dzogchen is like being thrown into the deep end of the pool. Mahamudra can be much more step-by-step. I also find that a continuing study of Madhyamaka has been extremely useful.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by kalden yungdrung » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 pm

Matt J wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:12 pm
Personally, I find Mahamudra MUCH easier to work with than Dzogchen. Dzogchen is like being thrown into the deep end of the pool. Mahamudra can be much more step-by-step. I also find that a continuing study of Madhyamaka has been extremely useful.
- What is for you then so specific different between Dzogchen and Mahamudra ?
It means you have studied Dzogchen and compared it to your actual practice of Mahamudra, when i understood your story.

- What kind of Mahamudra are you practising and in what Tibetan Tradition ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Matt J
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Matt J » Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:23 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:04 pm
- What is for you then so specific different between Dzogchen and Mahamudra ?
It means you have studied Dzogchen and compared it to your actual practice of Mahamudra, when i understood your story.
Yes, that's right.
- What kind of Mahamudra are you practising and in what Tibetan Tradition ?
I'm following the Kagyu tradition as taught by Tergar lamas.
The Great Way is not difficult
If only there is no picking or choosing
--- Xin Xin Ming

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weitsicht
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by weitsicht » Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:48 am

From James Low, Simply Being
"Dzogchen and Mahamudra are in a sense teachings apart from the rest of the dharma in that they point directly at the innate perfection of each individual and are subversive in the sense that they question the necessity of particular behaviours and the hierarchical systems of spiritual development through stages"
I haven't quite found out where the material differences between the two lie other than that the terms derive from different sects.
It is much better to find a teacher with whom you resonate and follow his/her teachings. Most I know mingle teachings from the two anyways.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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PSM
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by PSM » Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:11 am

Matt J wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:12 pm
Dzogchen is like being thrown into the deep end of the pool. Mahamudra can be much more step-by-step. I also find that a continuing study of Madhyamaka has been extremely useful.
The way I differentiate the two for myself is that Mahamudra is from the bottom up, and Dzogchen, for the most part, is straight to the peak. And Dzogchen Semde is almost exactly the same as Essence Mahamudra, but with different terminology.
"The only virtue which cannot be faked is courage" - Nassim Nicholas Taleb
"We don't want to feel the weirdness of life." - James Low

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conebeckham
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:44 pm

My recommendation is to connect with a teacher. Both approaches rely on a Guru, and that should be the primary focus when one is engaging in either path.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm

Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

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Sennin
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Sennin » Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm
Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.

I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.
Go no paradigm! ;)

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:09 pm

Sennin wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm
Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.

I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.
Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:09 pm
Sennin wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:45 pm
Before connecting w a teacher research all the lineages. Research their primary methods of instruction. Research their methods of practice. Then, follow your heart. Your heart will become inspired, awed and transfixed somehow. Find that guru and give it your all. You can practice Mahamudra and/or Mahasandhi. These areas are deep and vast. They are amazing.

I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.
Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.
Take them all. It can help to have an idea what you want. For example, in my case gaining access to original Indian tantric practice was important. So I went after the oldest Unbroken lineages.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:29 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:09 pm
Sennin wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:57 pm



I think this is a good idea, to generally know what practice/instructions one will be committing to.
Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.
Take them all. It can help to have an idea what you want. For example, in my case gaining access to original Indian tantric practice was important. So I went after the oldest Unbroken lineages.
Didn't know you were a Sakyapa.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1351
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:32 pm

:geek:
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:29 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 9:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:09 pm


Of course, in Vajrayana you can’t know until you take teachings.
Take them all. It can help to have an idea what you want. For example, in my case gaining access to original Indian tantric practice was important. So I went after the oldest Unbroken lineages.
Didn't know you were a Sakyapa.

M
Well I keep a practice of the Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST, so... YUP. At this point, except for Bon, Every lineage is in me. I gotta shout out to Guhyasamaja. Totally underrepresented and underrated, but dang good.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

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