Mahamudra and Dzogchen

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Malcolm
Posts: 28310
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:23 pm

haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pm
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 pm

Agree!

Actually, I have a doubt on this statement:"The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.
I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).

If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.

In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.
If what you understand is correct there is no need for thogal and Dzogchen is no different than chan. However, what you say is not true because trekcho is related to the basis, not the path.

Trekco is knowing that there is pure gold in ore, thogal is refining the gold from the ore.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

haha
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:23 pm
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pm


You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.
I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).

If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.

In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.
If what you understand is correct there is no need for thogal and Dzogchen is no different than chan. However, what you say is not true because trekcho is related to the basis, not the path.

Trekco is knowing that there is pure gold in ore, thogal is refining the gold from the ore.
If it is the case, then thogal is like purification. Am I correct?

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28310
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:46 pm

haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:23 pm
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm


I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).

If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.

In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.
If what you understand is correct there is no need for thogal and Dzogchen is no different than chan. However, what you say is not true because trekcho is related to the basis, not the path.

Trekco is knowing that there is pure gold in ore, thogal is refining the gold from the ore.
If it is the case, then thogal is like purification. Am I correct?
Yes, this why in general it held one cannot attain rainbow from trekco alone
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

haha
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 8:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:46 pm
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:23 pm


If what you understand is correct there is no need for thogal and Dzogchen is no different than chan. However, what you say is not true because trekcho is related to the basis, not the path.

Trekco is knowing that there is pure gold in ore, thogal is refining the gold from the ore.
If it is the case, then thogal is like purification. Am I correct?
Yes, this why in general it held one cannot attain rainbow from trekco alone
Ok, thanks.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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