But so is Chetsun NMalcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 amOne cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.passel wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk
If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Huh?Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:41 amBut so is Chetsun NMalcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 amOne cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.passel wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk
If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulationMalcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pmHuh?
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pmFirst half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:58 pmChetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pmFirst half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:00 pmThen it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:58 pmChetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pm
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:09 pmEven so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pmAnyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I believe Khenpo NamdrolMalcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pmNo, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pmAnyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
The notion comes from a line in the root text. The Hevajra tantra says, "Buddhist tīrthikas who do not know Hevajra will never attain buddhahood."Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:22 pmI believe Khenpo NamdrolMalcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pmNo, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.Crazywisdom wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
As I said, Vajrayāna hyperbole. For example, Khenpo Acho, student of Dudjom Rinpoche, attained rainbow body in the late nineties through the practice of Vajrakilāya. His other main practice was Naro Khachoma.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Yes. I believe rainbow body from a Vajrakilaya like Silavajra. Also Guhyagarbha like Buddhaguhya. These are all so amazing. Obviously not to forget Vajrayogini methods are so wonderful.Malcolm wrote: ↑Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pmThe notion comes from a line in the root text. The Hevajra tantra says, "Buddhist tīrthikas who do not know Hevajra will never attain buddhahood."
As I said, Vajrayāna hyperbole. For example, Khenpo Acho, student of Dudjom Rinpoche, attained rainbow body in the late nineties through the practice of Vajrakilāya. His other main practice was Naro Khachoma.
Vajra fangs deliver vajra venom to your Mara body.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Lamdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.
@ passel
If you have heard the Gelug masters presentation, they can very precisely remark the experience of Dzogchen and Tantra in particular stage.
If you have read "The Supreme Source(The Kunjed Gyalpo)", you can figure out the subtle level of grasping in other lower vehicles.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.haha wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:00 amIf one knows the Dzochen before receiving Lamdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.
@ passel
If you have heard the Gelug masters presentation, they can very precisely remark the experience of Dzogchen and Tantra in particular stage.
If you have read "The Supreme Source(The Kunjed Gyalpo)", you can figure out the subtle level of grasping in other lower vehicles.
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Agree!Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:18 amThere is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.
Actually, I have a doubt on this statement:"The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."
If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
As an ill-informed dilettante, my idea is that "purifies" is a little misleading. Pristine consciousness is absolutely free. In fact it is so free that it can get tangled and constricted. Think of a rope all snarled in knots. That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering. So perhaps you could say "fundamental freedom looses its restriction", or "purity expresses itself without hinderance". The classical teaching on the snake unknotting itself comes to mind.If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
Anyway, I do like talking about things I haven't studied in depth. So please continue.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I have also limited information, but great faith in few masters and their teachings. Based my limited understanding of their teaching, I would like to ask: how does the cloud block the path of sky as you said,"That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering"?smcj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:27 pmAs an ill-informed dilettante, my idea is that "purifies" is a little misleading. Pristine consciousness is absolutely free. In fact it is so free that it can get tangled and constricted. That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering. So perhaps you could say "fundamental freedom looses its restrictions. The classical teaching on the snake unknotting itself comes to mind.If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
Anyway, I do like talking about things I haven't studied in depth. So please continue.
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- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
Mixing metaphors doesn't work.haha wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:41 pmI have also limited information, but great faith in few masters and their teachings. Based my limited understanding of their teaching, I would like to ask: how does the cloud block the path of sky as you said,"That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering"?smcj wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:27 pmAs an ill-informed dilettante, my idea is that "purifies" is a little misleading. Pristine consciousness is absolutely free. In fact it is so free that it can get tangled and constricted. That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering. So perhaps you could say "fundamental freedom looses its restrictions. The classical teaching on the snake unknotting itself comes to mind.If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
Anyway, I do like talking about things I haven't studied in depth. So please continue.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.haha wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 pmAgree!
Actually, I have a doubt on this statement:"The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."
If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen
I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).Malcolm wrote: ↑Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pmYou can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.
If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.
In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.