Mahamudra and Dzogchen

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Crazywisdom
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:41 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am
passel wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am
I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk

If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
But so is Chetsun N
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:41 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am
passel wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:52 am
I think this question is on point, but maybe it could be a new thread- there were a few different thread with similar titles, and I think a bunch of posts or even a thread got deleted? Idk

If one held the view that mahamudra and dzogchen have the same basis and the same fruit, that just the paths are distinct (but lets be honest overlapping- cf. JLing Lion's Roar on stillness movement noticing in Dzogchen as but one of kotis of examples), then does that just boil down to two distinct sets of texts, instructions, practices, practice communities?
One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
But so is Chetsun N
Huh?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:41 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am


One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
But so is Chetsun N
Huh?
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:58 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:41 am


But so is Chetsun N
Huh?
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:58 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:37 pm


Huh?
First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.
Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:09 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:58 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:38 pm


First half of Sadhana is essentially tummo. As purification and accumulation
Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.
Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.
Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:09 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 4:58 pm


Chetsun Nyinthig sadhana is not Dzogchen, it's anuyoga, specifically, employing devotion to the guru as the path.
Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.
Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:09 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:00 pm


Then it becomes Dzogchen. Very pure lineage.
Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:09 pm


Even so, the basis of purification of Dzogchen is not the five aggregates.
Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.
I believe Khenpo Namdrol
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27989
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:11 pm

Anyone wants Rainbow body these days has to practice Guru Singhishwara.
No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.
I believe Khenpo Namdrol
The notion comes from a line in the root text. The Hevajra tantra says, "Buddhist tīrthikas who do not know Hevajra will never attain buddhahood."

As I said, Vajrayāna hyperbole. For example, Khenpo Acho, student of Dudjom Rinpoche, attained rainbow body in the late nineties through the practice of Vajrakilāya. His other main practice was Naro Khachoma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1478
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Crazywisdom » Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:51 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:45 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:19 pm


No, this is just standard Vajrayāna hyperbole. Even if you practice this, there is no guarantee of rainbow body. Rainbow body depends on the practitioner, not the practice.
I believe Khenpo Namdrol
The notion comes from a line in the root text. The Hevajra tantra says, "Buddhist tīrthikas who do not know Hevajra will never attain buddhahood."

As I said, Vajrayāna hyperbole. For example, Khenpo Acho, student of Dudjom Rinpoche, attained rainbow body in the late nineties through the practice of Vajrakilāya. His other main practice was Naro Khachoma.
Yes. I believe rainbow body from a Vajrakilaya like Silavajra. Also Guhyagarbha like Buddhaguhya. These are all so amazing. Obviously not to forget Vajrayogini methods are so wonderful.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

haha
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:00 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am

One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Lamdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.

@ passel
If you have heard the Gelug masters presentation, they can very precisely remark the experience of Dzogchen and Tantra in particular stage.
If you have read "The Supreme Source(The Kunjed Gyalpo)", you can figure out the subtle level of grasping in other lower vehicles.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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Malcolm
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Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:18 am

haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:00 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am

One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Lamdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.

@ passel
If you have heard the Gelug masters presentation, they can very precisely remark the experience of Dzogchen and Tantra in particular stage.
If you have read "The Supreme Source(The Kunjed Gyalpo)", you can figure out the subtle level of grasping in other lower vehicles.
There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

haha
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:18 am
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:00 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:08 am

One cannot practice Lamdre from a Dzogchen point of view. Why? The basis of purification is different. The basis of purification of Lamdre is the five aggregates. The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness.
If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Lamdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.
There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.
Agree!

Actually, I have a doubt on this statement:"The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

smcj
Posts: 5753
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:27 pm

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
As an ill-informed dilettante, my idea is that "purifies" is a little misleading. Pristine consciousness is absolutely free. In fact it is so free that it can get tangled and constricted. Think of a rope all snarled in knots. That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering. So perhaps you could say "fundamental freedom looses its restriction", or "purity expresses itself without hinderance". The classical teaching on the snake unknotting itself comes to mind.

Anyway, I do like talking about things I haven't studied in depth. So please continue.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

haha
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:41 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:27 pm
If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
As an ill-informed dilettante, my idea is that "purifies" is a little misleading. Pristine consciousness is absolutely free. In fact it is so free that it can get tangled and constricted. That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering. So perhaps you could say "fundamental freedom looses its restrictions. The classical teaching on the snake unknotting itself comes to mind.

Anyway, I do like talking about things I haven't studied in depth. So please continue.
I have also limited information, but great faith in few masters and their teachings. Based my limited understanding of their teaching, I would like to ask: how does the cloud block the path of sky as you said,"That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering"?

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

smcj
Posts: 5753
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 pm

haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:41 pm
smcj wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:27 pm
If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
As an ill-informed dilettante, my idea is that "purifies" is a little misleading. Pristine consciousness is absolutely free. In fact it is so free that it can get tangled and constricted. That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering. So perhaps you could say "fundamental freedom looses its restrictions. The classical teaching on the snake unknotting itself comes to mind.

Anyway, I do like talking about things I haven't studied in depth. So please continue.
I have also limited information, but great faith in few masters and their teachings. Based my limited understanding of their teaching, I would like to ask: how does the cloud block the path of sky as you said,"That constriction, while still pristine, is a sentient being suffering"?
Mixing metaphors doesn't work.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

haha
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:51 pm

smcj wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:50 pm

Mixing metaphors doesn't work.
Sorry for that.
:anjali:

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

User avatar
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pm

haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:18 am
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:00 am


If one knows the Dzochen before receiving Love amdre, those instructions of the lamdre at the time of empowerment would be very profound.It is my personal opinion. Certainly, what they emphasize to purify is different.
There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.
Agree!

Actually, I have a doubt on this statement:"The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

haha
Posts: 186
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Mahamudra and Dzogchen

Post by haha » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:16 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:43 pm
haha wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:12 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:18 am


There is no doubt that Lamdre and Dzogchen are compatible, but one has to understand how their paths differ.
Agree!

Actually, I have a doubt on this statement:"The basis of purification of Dzogchen is pristine consciousness."

If something that is pure and perfect from very beginning, what is there one purifies?
You can doubt the statement, but it is a statement made by the great Lamdre exegete Dezhung Ajam, who also studied Dzogchen under Adzom Drukpa. To answer your question, temporary afflictions are purified, in the same way impurities in gold ore are separated from the gold. Lamdre by contrast transforms the aggregates into the Buddha families etc., like the example of the philosopher stone transforming base metal into gold.
I cannot tell anything about whom I don’t know, (Dezhung Ajam).

If I remember Lamdre correctly, there are purifications of past, present and future life and intermediate stage in development stage, and one actually understands real lamdre view in completion stage.

In dzogchen, if the student has authentic realization of view, then he stabilizes it instead of purifying anything. There is nothing to purify in pristine awareness. If I am wrong, I will be happy to be corrected.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

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