The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

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LuisR
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The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by LuisR » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:20 pm

How important are these to Mahayana and what source text do they get it from? Thank you.

LuisR
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The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by LuisR » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm

Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?

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Queequeg
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by Queequeg » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:40 pm

Depends on the tradition. In East Asia, the Four Noble Truths are most closely related to the Sravakayana, the 12 Nidana with the Pratyekabuddhayana, and the Six Paramita with the Bodhisattvayana.

As for texts... I guess it would start with the Agama, but its reiterated throughout the Mahayana canon, if not explicitly, its taken for granted.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

I think each human being has things to find out in his own life that are inescapable. They’ll find them out the easy way or the hard way, or whatever.
-Jerry Garcia

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:56 pm

LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:20 pm
How important are these to Mahayana and what source text do they get it from? Thank you.
The Four Noble Truths are absolutely vital. The Eightfold Path is reformulated as the three higher trainings in the Mahayana - higher moral discipline, higher concentration and higher wisdom, all higher because they are motivated by the mind of renunciation, a mind that wishes to attain permanent liberation from the sufferings of this life and countless future lives.

The source of these instructions is the implicit meaning of the Perfection of Wisdom Sutra.

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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by clyde » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:23 pm

It’s my understanding that the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are essential in all Buddhist traditions, including the Mahayana traditions.

As for source text, I’d begin with the Pali Sutta, Setting the Wheel of Dharma in Motion:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Zen is buddhism so it follows them, and they'll come from the Dharmacakrapravartana Sūtra (The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma Sutra).
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

SunWuKong
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:20 am

I was once told that in Zen they don't have it, but this later was proven wrong. Zen has all the Canonical texts, and there's more required reading than one might imagine, considering the claim "outside the scriptures"
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:22 am

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Temicco
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Temicco » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am
LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Zen is buddhism so it follows them, and they'll come from the Dharmacakrapravartana Sūtra (The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma Sutra).
Nice try.

The 4 noble truths are very rarely discussed in Zen texts; I suspect this may relate to the fact that they are a shravaka teaching per the Mahayana sutras.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

Temicco
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Temicco » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:52 am

LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Classically, Zen does not "follow" or posit any doctrines. Except maybe that it doesn't follow any doctrines.

"A separate transmission outside the teachings,

not establishing words and letters,

pointing directly at the human mind:

see nature, and become a Buddha."

One the medicine has worked, it is removed, and all that.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:10 am

Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 am
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am
Zen is buddhism so it follows them, and they'll come from the Dharmacakrapravartana Sūtra (The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma Sutra).
Nice try.

The 4 noble truths are very rarely discussed in Zen texts; I suspect this may relate to the fact that they are a shravaka teaching per the Mahayana sutras.
Even if they're rarely discussed they are still the base of all buddhist practice.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

Temicco
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Temicco » Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:13 am

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 2:10 am
Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 am
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am
Zen is buddhism so it follows them, and they'll come from the Dharmacakrapravartana Sūtra (The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma Sutra).
Nice try.

The 4 noble truths are very rarely discussed in Zen texts; I suspect this may relate to the fact that they are a shravaka teaching per the Mahayana sutras.
Even if they're rarely discussed they are still the base of all buddhist practice.
In your opinion, maybe.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

LuisR
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by LuisR » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:17 am

Thank you for the replies. I have to say though it is a bit confusing.

LuisR
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by LuisR » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:23 am

Thank you for the replies.

I was curious about exclusively Mahayana sources but now that the Pali cannon was mentioned, Is it common for Mahayanist temples to have a copy of the Pali cannon? How common would it be for a Mahayanist monk to be familiar with the Pali Cannon as they are with Mahayana sutras? Thanks again. :namaste:

ItsRaining
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The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by ItsRaining » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:43 am

Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 am
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am
LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Zen is buddhism so it follows them, and they'll come from the Dharmacakrapravartana Sūtra (The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma Sutra).
Nice try.

The 4 noble truths are very rarely discussed in Zen texts; I suspect this may relate to the fact that they are a shravaka teaching per the Mahayana sutras.
The Four Noble Truths are not just Sravaka teachings, in the Tiantai school from the Sravakayana to the Perfect teaching each one has their own set of Four Noble Truths. And the Flower Garland Sutra has a chapter on the Four Noble Truths that state it’s importance and that it’s taught by all Buddhas under various names.

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Wayfarer
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The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:52 am

Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:52 am
LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Classically, Zen does not "follow" or posit any doctrines. Except maybe that it doesn't follow any doctrines.
I think that's a bit of a misreading, because as is evident from the OP and some of the comments beneath, Zen (and related schools) have produced an enormous body of literature and commentary. Zen and Ch'an monasteries typically have libraries and adhere to a pretty strict schedule and monastic routine. Sure there are also wandering mendicants and solitary practitioners but I think the idea that Zen doesn't follow or posit doctrines is something of a simplification.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Grigoris
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:42 am

Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:52 am
LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Classically, Zen does not "follow" or posit any doctrines. Except maybe that it doesn't follow any doctrines.

"A separate transmission outside the teachings,

not establishing words and letters,

pointing directly at the human mind:

see nature, and become a Buddha."

One the medicine has worked, it is removed, and all that.
Obviously the medicine hasn't worked for you yet, since you are still grasping and identifying so strongly.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Temicco
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Re: Chan Texts: Translations & Studies

Post by Temicco » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:48 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:42 am
Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:52 am
LuisR wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:26 pm
Does Zen follow the Four Noble Truths? If so what texts do they get it from?
Classically, Zen does not "follow" or posit any doctrines. Except maybe that it doesn't follow any doctrines.

"A separate transmission outside the teachings,

not establishing words and letters,

pointing directly at the human mind:

see nature, and become a Buddha."

One the medicine has worked, it is removed, and all that.
Obviously the medicine hasn't worked for you yet, since you are still grasping and identifying so strongly.
Really? There is nothing grasping or identifying about setting the record straight as to how Zen is actually traditionally taught. It is people who want Zen to follow their ideals and thus misrepresent it who have that problem.

I am far from free of the three poisons, but that is manifest in other areas.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

shaunc
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by shaunc » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:53 am

The 4 noble truths and the noble eight foldpath are fundamental to all schools of buddhism.
The 4 noble truths especially are the start of the whole story. A school without them would be like a Christian sect that didn't have a Christmas story.

Temicco
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Re: The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path

Post by Temicco » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:55 am

ItsRaining wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:43 am
Temicco wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:47 am
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:56 am

Zen is buddhism so it follows them, and they'll come from the Dharmacakrapravartana Sūtra (The Setting in Motion of the Wheel of the Dharma Sutra).
Nice try.

The 4 noble truths are very rarely discussed in Zen texts; I suspect this may relate to the fact that they are a shravaka teaching per the Mahayana sutras.
The Four Noble Truths are not just Sravaka teachings, in the Tiantai school from the Sravakayana to the Perfect teaching each one has their own set of Four Noble Truths. And the Flower Garland Sutra has a chapter on the Four Noble Truths that state it’s importance and that it’s taught by all Buddhas under various names.
Sure, I am just relating how the sutras present them. Apparently Tiantai is fine with nevertheless incorporating the 4NT, but you won't see the same enthusiasm in most Zen texts. I'm not familiar with the Avatamsaka chapter, so I'll give that a look -- thanks.
"Deliberate upon that which does not deliberate."
-Yaoshan Weiyan

"Right now if students are in fact truly genuine, source teachers can contact their potential and activate it with a single word or phrase, or a single act or scene."
-Yuanwu Keqin

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