Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

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smcj
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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by smcj » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:37 pm

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:26 pm
smcj, what is the Rangtong Ma-yin-gag view?
Can’t do much now. But it is called, “self-empty, affirming negation”.

“Affirming” being the critical term.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Snowbear
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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Snowbear » Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:44 pm

I read an excerpt on it just now from the Situ R book you mentioned, and I think you are right in this discussion.

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Wayfarer » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:00 am

One useful perspective that comes to mind, is that the realisation that ‘all beings suffer’ is also a useful way to be able to face up to the reality of suffering. I mean, it is the answer to the question that you sometimes ask when something terrible happens - ‘why me?’ The answer being - ‘why not?’ We’re all in the same boat. SO that actually helps to become less self-centred, and more compassionate; you understand your own suffering is the same as the suffering of others, and the suffering of others is exactly like your own.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by smcj » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:04 am

Snowbear wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:44 pm
I read an excerpt on it just now from the Situ R book you mentioned, and I think you are right in this discussion.
You're new here. I've had this same discussion with these same people multiple times, minus the Situ R. book referenced in this thread. It's getting really old.

But I do kinda like the new "self-empty, affirming negation" idea. It is emptiness put in positive terms, which I think is the important point in Shentong. Plus it avoids the problem of being like Advaita (which I don't care about but is a big deal to some poeple).. Seems pretty cool to me as of this posting.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:47 am

First, being argumentative is inevitable when on the internet, especially when one thinks he or she is going to be the vanguard for Buddhadharma against misinformation. Second, ironically, I don't think they like taking Situ R's words on their own terms.
Last edited by Snowbear on Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:41 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Virgo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:56 am

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:47 am
First, being argumentative is inevitable when on the internet, especially when one thinks he or she is going to be the vanguard for Buddhadharma against misinformation.
I don't think being argumentative is inevitable. Being argumentative is a choice/attitude. Disagreeing with people may be inevitable. Whether that turns into an argument or not is another thing, but it may without any of the people necessarily being argumentative.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:01 am

Virgo wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:56 am
Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:47 am
First, being argumentative is inevitable when on the internet, especially when one thinks he or she is going to be the vanguard for Buddhadharma against misinformation.
I don't think being argumentative is inevitable. Being argumentative is a choice/attitude. Disagreeing with people may be inevitable. Whether that turns into an argument or not is another thing, but it may without any of the people necessarily being argumentative.

Kevin...
Ideally, not really in practice.

In any case, I think smcj is right here.

http://www.greatliberation.org/library/ ... 202008.pdf
Situ R wrote:Now going to Shentong Ma-yin-gag, what does it
says about Buddha nature? I’m using the same subject
because then we can a get grip on it. If I use different
subjects for each one then we will get lost. So using the
same subject, Buddha nature, it is permanent and
unchangeable and not created by anybody, it is not
created with anything, it has no limitation, it is limitless.
That is Buddha nature’s quality. For example, the quality
of fire is hot. The quality of space is empty. The quality
of sun is bright. Just like that, the quality of Buddha
nature is limitless, incorruptible, and absolutely forever.
That is Shentong Ma-yin-gag. Of course Shentong Mayin-gag,
when in debate, for the purpose of philosophical
debate, can describe Rangtong Ma-gag as nihilist, and
Rangtong Ma-gag, for the sake of debating, can call
Shentong Ma-yin-gag as eternalist. But if you ask me,
what is my philosophy, I am Shentong Ma-yin-gag. For
me Buddha nature is beyond nothing. Buddha nature’s
quality is non-dualistic, free of limitation, limitless,
perfect, incorruptible, primordial, that is the essence of
everyone and everything.
Last edited by Snowbear on Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Virgo » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:04 am

Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:01 am
Ideally, not really in practice.
Perhaps we are using the term differently.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Snowbear » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:06 am

Virgo wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:04 am
Snowbear wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:01 am
Ideally, not really in practice.
Perhaps we are using the term differently.

Kevin...
Let's stick to the topic at hand.

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by kirtu » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:03 am

Marc wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:15 pm
"Interconnectedness" thought as some kind of "interpenetration", where "everything is connected with everything else, at every single point in time and space" is a central theme of the Huayan school of Chinese Buddhism, but, as far as I can tell, this view is rather marginal if you take Buddhism as a whole.
 
I'm not sure I'd say "marginal" although it is primarily an East Asian teaching. There are in fact references to it in Tibetan Buddhism but they are usually indirect.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Marc » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:12 am

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:04 pm
I mean no criticism of Thich Nhat Hahn when I say that a misunderstanding of his teaching on 'Interbeing' has sewn much confusion..on the surface he appears to be supporting the ideas of Advaita.
And some do not venture below the surface.
Indeed Simon.
kirtu wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:03 am
I'm not sure I'd say "marginal" although it is primarily an East Asian teaching. There are in fact references to it in Tibetan Buddhism but they are usually indirect.

Kirt
Hi Kirt,
What do you have in mind as regard to its presence in Tibetan Buddhism ?  
Thx
M

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by boundless » Tue Jun 26, 2018 11:16 am

Marc wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:12 am
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:04 pm
I mean no criticism of Thich Nhat Hahn when I say that a misunderstanding of his teaching on 'Interbeing' has sewn much confusion..on the surface he appears to be supporting the ideas of Advaita.
And some do not venture below the surface.
Indeed Simon.
kirtu wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:03 am
I'm not sure I'd say "marginal" although it is primarily an East Asian teaching. There are in fact references to it in Tibetan Buddhism but they are usually indirect.

Kirt
Hi Kirt,
What do you have in mind as regard to its presence in Tibetan Buddhism ?
Thx
M




Hi,

I too agree that on the surface Advaita and "interbeing" sound similar.

I think that the main difference between "interpenetration" (and, in particular, the Thich Nhat Hanh's version of it, "interbeing") is that in Advaita there is an ontological "primum" that causes everything. Also another important difference is that, in Advaita, at the relative level, there is the Personal Deity "Saguna Brahman".

Anyway, "interpenetration" (in its various forms) seems pretty a widespread teaching in East Asian Buddhism. For example, see this article on Tiantai Buddhism on the "Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy".

All the best,

:anjali:

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by seeker242 » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:07 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:29 pm
Vasana wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:39 pm
there is at least some connection between all beings as taught in Mahayana.both in terms of 'mother sentient beings' and the fact that the clothes on our back, food on our plate, technology were using and so on is due to the kindness and/or efforts of others.
Contemplating that samsara has no beginning (SN 15.14) is meant to raise the sense of renunciation, while considering other people's kindness is to develop gratitude (AN 2.31). Neither are about establishing the concept that there is an invisible connection. And the reason for that is that all beings are responsible for their own actions and reap the fruits of their own deeds (MN 135).
And what about Metta? Is metta not used to "establish a connection"?
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Astus » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:34 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:07 pm
And what about Metta? Is metta not used to "establish a connection"?
One develops kindness in order to attain the 11 benefits (see: AN 11.16), and possibly even liberation (MN 52). Even the four means of attraction (samgrahavastu / 四攝法) are about liberating beings.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Vasana » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:17 pm

Astus wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:34 pm
seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:07 pm
And what about Metta? Is metta not used to "establish a connection"?
One develops kindness in order to attain the 11 benefits (see: AN 11.16), and possibly even liberation (MN 52). Even the four means of attraction (samgrahavastu / 四攝法) are about liberating beings.
Yet we can still use the word 'connection' conventionally in the sense that a Bodhisattvas realization and activity is connected or interdependent with the conventional occurrence of sentient beings.

Often in Tibetan Buddhism we hear of making 'Dharma connections' with teachers and how students meet good teachers connected by aspirations made in previous lives. Then there are karmic connections and connections established from vows and so on. Then there's the concept of tendrels. So and so is conected with so and so's lineage and so on. Connectivity and interdependence are a fact of reality it's just that on the ultimate side, no entities are truly established.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Astus » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:19 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:17 pm
Connectivity and interdependence are a fact of reality it's just that on the ultimate side, no entities are truly established.
I'm not talking of any ultimate level, more like "middle level" (conventional analytical/philosophical), that I think the OP is asking about. Of course, connections do make sense on the ordinary conventional level, but that does not require much Buddhist explanation.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:50 pm

As Thinley Norbu Rinpoche says in "White Sail":
If we believe in the continuity of mind, then love inconspicuously connects us to the ones we love with continuous positive energy, so that even tangible separations between people who love each other do not reduce the intangible power of love.
.
You can read a nice description of what that might be like for a real master here.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by SunWuKong » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:04 pm
Marc wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:15 pm
Hi everyone !  

May be is it worth pointing that Pratītyasamutpāda does not mean "interconnectedness" but "dependent origination", to chose one translation amongst many.

"Interconnectedness" thought as some kind of "interpenetration", where "everything is connected with everything else, at every single point in time and space" is a central theme of the Huayan school of Chinese Buddhism, but, as far as I can tell, this view is rather marginal if you take Buddhism as a whole.
 
I mean no criticism of Thich Nhat Hahn when I say that a misunderstanding of his teaching on 'Interbeing' has sewn much confusion..on the surface he appears to be supporting the ideas of Advaita.
And some do not venture below the surface.
Well said. I think it's easier to understand that shunyata, Emptiness, means nothing has a separate "self" - this doesn't imply that there is a Oneness that has a separate "Self", because nothing does. This goes to the core, anatta, the non-existence of self, anywhere, for anything. TNH's take is that upon seeing deeply every "self" is entirely made up of "non-self" elements. Either way, what's to be taken away from this is that our delusion is in seeing a "Self" where none exists, that our world is made up on many "selves" which if you happen to look at it without self-view, you can't see any of it. Nothing is either self nor non-self. And then who is seeing it? And how do you define "it" ?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by kirtu » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:19 pm

Marc wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:12 am
kirtu wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:03 am
I'm not sure I'd say "marginal" although it is primarily an East Asian teaching. There are in fact references to it in Tibetan Buddhism but they are usually indirect.

Kirt
Hi Kirt,
What do you have in mind as regard to its presence in Tibetan Buddhism ?  
Thx
M
These are basically oral teachings although sometimes they crop up in print.

So they are not direct oral teachings. That is, a lama does not directly say something like "all things are deeply interconnected/interrelated" (actually in Nyingma sometimes a lama does mention deep interrelatedness but this is usually in reference to karma in some way). But they will sometimes mention that karmic influences basically result in deep interconnections over very long time. Sometimes other interconnections are also mentioned. This is not the typical teaching of the East Asian schools wrt what we can call "interbeing/interrelatedness/interconnection" except for some Zen teachers.

On both sides the teaching is very subtle. And pretty much only people inclined dharmically to this teaching pick it up (so I am suggesting that there is a specific set of people for whom "interbeing/interrelatedness/interconnection" is natural and one of the perfect teachings in the sense that they respond to it naturally).

Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Re: Is everything "one" or are we just inter-connected without a center?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:19 pm

There is no beginning end or center to anything.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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