Accuracy of internet koans

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Meido
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by Meido » Thu Jul 05, 2018 6:41 am

:namaste:
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

shanyin
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by shanyin » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:55 am

Anders wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:03 am
shanyin wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:03 am

There is no Buddhist centers in where I live. I am thinking of moving to a place where there may be some Buddhist community. Moving has been on my mind for a long time because where I live I view myself as being treated as a second class citizen, and subhuman.
What's your general area? Maybe we can help? Long distance is not ideal of course (I'd know, my teacher is on another continent), but it can be made to work.

Actually, I think the role of the teacher in koan practice is more crucial in the work of figuring for yourself how to grapple with the koan than to have someone who can judge your answer. I liken it a bit to client centered therapy, where the therapist does not apply a framework of analysis on the situation but facilitates the client's process of developing his own organic understanding of the situation. The work proper is done by the client himself, yet it is doubtful that the same result would have been reached without the dynamic cooperative work with the therapist. Koan work is in similar ways a cooperative process.
In what way are you proposing to help?

shanyin
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by shanyin » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:56 am

Anders wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:03 am
shanyin wrote:
Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:03 am

There is no Buddhist centers in where I live. I am thinking of moving to a place where there may be some Buddhist community. Moving has been on my mind for a long time because where I live I view myself as being treated as a second class citizen, and subhuman.
What's your general area? Maybe we can help? Long distance is not ideal of course (I'd know, my teacher is on another continent), but it can be made to work.

Actually, I think the role of the teacher in koan practice is more crucial in the work of figuring for yourself how to grapple with the koan than to have someone who can judge your answer. I liken it a bit to client centered therapy, where the therapist does not apply a framework of analysis on the situation but facilitates the client's process of developing his own organic understanding of the situation. The work proper is done by the client himself, yet it is doubtful that the same result would have been reached without the dynamic cooperative work with the therapist. Koan work is in similar ways a cooperative process.
In what way are you proposing to help?

shanyin
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 4:49 am

Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by shanyin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:24 am

What is the true form of the koan what is the sound of one hand clapping? Is it two hands clap and there is no sound, what is the sound of one hand?

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Meido
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by Meido » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:52 am

It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

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passel
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by passel » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:12 am

Meido wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:52 am
Here.
Oo. Cool book, I wasn't aware of it, thank you.

We should get an Abe thread going, and a Hisamatsu thread after that.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

shanyin
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by shanyin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:56 am

Is there a different form of that koan?

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Meido
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by Meido » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:07 pm

passel wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:12 am
Here.
Oo. Cool book, I wasn't aware of it, thank you.
No problem. I haven't read it actually, but I knew Yampolsky had translated Hakuin's Yabukoji and searched for that. Abe there quotes Yampolsky's The Zen Master Hakuin: Selected Writings which has the rest of Yabukoji as well.
shanyin wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:56 am
Is there a different form of that koan?
Sure:

It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

shanyin
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 4:49 am

Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by shanyin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 2:59 pm

You posted a video of the Simpsons. I am trying to find the true form of that koan, there are different ones on the internet. Do you believe that the one in the book you mentioned is the right one?

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Meido
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Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by Meido » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:45 pm

The true form of the koan is however it is given by one's teacher, since it is not a practice one does on one's own.

But yes, the quote from Hakuin - who devised that koan - is a standard wording.

The versions you asked about, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" and "Two hands clap and there is no sound, what is the sound of one hand?" are both inaccurate. The former of these is found commonly everywhere...hence the Simpsons.
It is relatively easy to accomplish the important matter of insight into one’s true nature, but uncommonly difficult to function freely and clearly [according to this understanding], in motion and in rest, in good and in adverse circumstances. Please make strenuous and vigorous efforts towards this end, otherwise all the teachings of Buddhas and patriarchs become mere empty words. - Torei

The Rinzai Zen Way: A Guide to Practice

Korinji Rinzai Zen Monastery [臨済宗 • 祖的山光林禅寺] - http://www.korinji.org

shanyin
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 4:49 am

Re: Accuracy of internet koans

Post by shanyin » Sun Oct 21, 2018 11:49 pm

Thank you

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