Disagreeing with Guru

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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:27 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:56 pm
Dang. Do you just decide which sadhana to do for the day or do you just choose one and stick to it forever?
It is not a matter of choice, as such.

I asked for a particular practice and the teacher said: "If I give you this practice you will have to do it daily forever. Are you up to it?"

And I stupidly answered "Yes!"
Ah....................

(How did that go and how is it going?)
How do you think it would be going? It is now 11.30pm I was working today from 9-5pm, then rested and did my one practice before going for training from 8-10 and now I have to do my other practice and eat some dinner before going to sleep and work again tomorrow morning. Add dealing with all the nonsense here as well. So how do you think it is going? :rolleye:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:27 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm
It is not a matter of choice, as such.

I asked for a particular practice and the teacher said: "If I give you this practice you will have to do it daily forever. Are you up to it?"

And I stupidly answered "Yes!"
Ah....................

(How did that go and how is it going?)
How do you think it would be going? It is now 11.30pm I was working today from 9-5pm, then rested and did my one practice before going for training from 8-10 and now I have to do my other practice and eat some dinner before going to sleep and work again tomorrow morning. Add dealing with all the nonsense here as well. So how do you think it is going? :rolleye:
Couldn't you practice at like 8 AM? I mean if it is a pacifying deity, that is the best time for pacification(pardon the person this is being received from, but I'm pretty sure other lamas do the same practice of day aspects as well):
https://books.google.com/books?id=gwF9p ... es&f=false

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Miroku » Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:27 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm
It is not a matter of choice, as such.

I asked for a particular practice and the teacher said: "If I give you this practice you will have to do it daily forever. Are you up to it?"

And I stupidly answered "Yes!"
Ah....................

(How did that go and how is it going?)
How do you think it would be going? It is now 11.30pm I was working today from 9-5pm, then rested and did my one practice before going for training from 8-10 and now I have to do my other practice and eat some dinner before going to sleep and work again tomorrow morning. Add dealing with all the nonsense here as well. So how do you think it is going? :rolleye:
You have will of steel, man! :D inspiring.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:39 pm

Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:47 pm
Couldn't you practice at like 8 AM?
Oh yeah, I forgot: In the morning I lay out all the offerings...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Malcolm
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:41 pm
I was responding to your assertion that you do not have a guru.
Would it be more suitable for me to assert that I do not feel like I have a guru? Or maybe to assert that for me merely satisfying some spiritual bureaucratic conditions is not enough to make me feel like a teacher is my guru? Would that make you feel better?
Also your assertion that it takes 15 years for someone to become your guru is just incorrect.
I seem to remember you saying it somewhere. So how many years is it?
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments. Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:57 am

It all depends on your motivation.
If your disagreement results from your being honest with yourself,
a good teacher will understand this, respect your honesty, and work with you from there.
.
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kausalya
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:06 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments. Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
Could that take the form of studying e.g. the lam rim for 12 years before beginning tantric practice?

Could one receive lungs for mantras/texts without violating this guideline?
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:57 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:27 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:18 pm
It is not a matter of choice, as such.

I asked for a particular practice and the teacher said: "If I give you this practice you will have to do it daily forever. Are you up to it?"

And I stupidly answered "Yes!"
Ah....................

(How did that go and how is it going?)
How do you think it would be going? It is now 11.30pm I was working today from 9-5pm, then rested and did my one practice before going for training from 8-10 and now I have to do my other practice and eat some dinner before going to sleep and work again tomorrow morning. Add dealing with all the nonsense here as well. So how do you think it is going? :rolleye:

I’m going off topic for this but I think perhaps this is one of his skillfull ways to let people know that exotic pratices can never truly get one excited or happy forever as one would think it would.

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:22 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:39 pm
Tenma wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:47 pm
Couldn't you practice at like 8 AM?
Oh yeah, I forgot: In the morning I lay out all the offerings...
A daily torma? Or the 8 offerings? Wouldn't that literally be part of a sadhana/practice? Or is this an entirely different practice as well? :shock:

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by pael » Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:51 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:11 pm
Thus means you think you have no samaya. But if you have samaya, you have a guru since former is dependent on the latter.
All these years I thought guru is dependent on samaya.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:32 am

Tenma wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:22 am
A daily torma? Or the 8 offerings? Wouldn't that literally be part of a sadhana/practice? Or is this an entirely different practice as well? :shock:
You should refrain from asking people for details of their practices. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:49 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 9:16 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 8:41 pm
I was responding to your assertion that you do not have a guru.
Would it be more suitable for me to assert that I do not feel like I have a guru? Or maybe to assert that for me merely satisfying some spiritual bureaucratic conditions is not enough to make me feel like a teacher is my guru? Would that make you feel better?
Also your assertion that it takes 15 years for someone to become your guru is just incorrect.
I seem to remember you saying it somewhere. So how many years is it?
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments. Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
Aha. Thanks for that reminder.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:50 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
This latter event: from my experience which isn’t a lot the latter type were the better gurus.
Vajra Killah Killallaya

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
Does a guru have to give empowerments? Or can a lama be a guru without giving thus?

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Malcolm
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
Nevertheless, the definition of a guru is very precise in Vajryana. The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

kausalya
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm
Nevertheless, the definition of a guru is very precise in Vajryana. The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
Not sure where I heard this, but one view seems to be that a person who gives you even one line of Dharma teaching (maybe it was one verse) should be treasured similarly to a guru, even if there is technically no samaya.

I wouldn't say it seems like the same thing as what we're saying, but it's interesting to keep in mind. Really expands one's sense of our debt of gratitude to sentient beings, considering that Dharma isn't limited to the Buddhadharma, but can be "anything that is well-spoken."
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
Nevertheless, the definition of a guru is very precise in Vajryana. The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
I've forgotten where I read it but doesn't the process then lead to treating all Gurus as one, and untimately a Guruyoga without a specific human form in mind?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:53 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:08 pm
I've forgotten where I read it but doesn't the process then lead to treating all Gurus as one, and untimately a Guruyoga without a specific human form in mind?
In the Kagyu Ngondro you visualise the guru in the form of Vajradhara.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:08 pm
I've forgotten where I read it but doesn't the process then lead to treating all Gurus as one, and untimately a Guruyoga without a specific human form in mind?
In the Kagyu Ngondro you visualise the guru in the form of Vajradhara.
'
Yes. :)

I think the other apect I was thinking of was the inner Guruyoga:

Gyalwai Nyugu Rinpoche (Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche) from the Guruyoga Practice Guide:

'When we rest in the state of visualising the Guru’s appearance inseparable from one’s own
mind, we realise the meaning that this state, free from discriminative thoughts or attachments
and possessing clarity, is just our ordinary mind merging with the Guru’s wisdom mind. As
our view deepens, we finally recognise the definitive ultimate meaning of emptiness which is
the inner self-nature Guru. Continuing to rest in the pure basic nature of one’s mind is the
inner Guru Yoga.''
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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