Disagreeing with Guru

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Tenma
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
Nevertheless, the definition of a guru is very precise in Vajryana. The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
So a lama doesn't become one's guru by having them recite some stuff and then taking refuge in front of them?

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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:50 am

Mantrik wrote: Yes. :)

I think the other apect I was thinking of was the inner Guruyoga:

Gyalwai Nyugu Rinpoche (Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche) from the Guruyoga Practice Guide:

'When we rest in the state of visualising the Guru’s appearance inseparable from one’s own
mind, we realise the meaning that this state, free from discriminative thoughts or attachments
and possessing clarity, is just our ordinary mind merging with the Guru’s wisdom mind. As
our view deepens, we finally recognise the definitive ultimate meaning of emptiness which is
the inner self-nature Guru. Continuing to rest in the pure basic nature of one’s mind is the
inner Guru Yoga.''
There is no difference between one's inner nature and Vajradhara/Samantabhadra. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:50 am
Mantrik wrote: Yes. :)

I think the other apect I was thinking of was the inner Guruyoga:

Gyalwai Nyugu Rinpoche (Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche) from the Guruyoga Practice Guide:

'When we rest in the state of visualising the Guru’s appearance inseparable from one’s own
mind, we realise the meaning that this state, free from discriminative thoughts or attachments
and possessing clarity, is just our ordinary mind merging with the Guru’s wisdom mind. As
our view deepens, we finally recognise the definitive ultimate meaning of emptiness which is
the inner self-nature Guru. Continuing to rest in the pure basic nature of one’s mind is the
inner Guru Yoga.''
There is no difference between one's inner nature and Vajradhara/Samantabhadra. ;)
Yes, as I posted 'a Guruyoga without a specific human form'.

I was also considering White A and Thigle absorbing, unifying and integrating all in that particular Guruyoga.
http://www.khyung.com

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Queequeg
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:51 pm

Moderator Note: This thread has been moved from Discovering Mahayana sub-forum to the Mahayana sub-forum. A shadow topic remains in the Discovering Mahayana sub-forum menu but will redirect to the Mahayana sub-forum. The reason for doing so is that the Discovering Mahayana sub-forum is fully moderated and every post requires review and approval by a mod. In the Mahayana sub-forum, this discussion will no longer be fully moderated.
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bokki
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by bokki » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:34 am

grigoris
Matthew, given you don't have a guru, I fail to see why you should be concerned.
dude, given that you are not a teacher, not a guru,
you make a discrimination between teacher and guru,
freely advise on 15 years, and other stuff,
do you think that anyone in their sane mind should listen to your advice?
i hope not,
but then,
i could be wrong.
you just may prove to be saviour of us all,
thanx to your advice.
of course, you may do many things,
that you forbid others to do..
here.
what are you saying, dude?
''listen to me, not your teacher!''???
hmmm
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am

Treating various instructions on finding a Guru as if they are meant to be taken as that exclusive, prescriptive, or literal is a little questionable, in my opinion, but whatever.

However, I would say that if someone has to ask "is this person my Guru"..then most likely, they are not your Guru. Whatever other factors come into play. If someone is your Guru, you should probably know.
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kausalya
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:18 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am
However, I would say that if someone has to ask "is this person my Guru"..then most likely, they are not your Guru. Whatever other factors come into play. If someone is your Guru, you should probably know.

Ask the teacher and see what he says...
  • "Avoid unexamined Dharma relationships./ After examining take heed: pay respect to the guru./ Things are such that in the future you will not lack a guru,/ For karma does not vanish." – Geshe Potowa
  • "The result congruous with the cause of paying your guru proper respect in this life/ Is meeting with supreme spiritual guides in all future lives/ And hearing the completely unmistaken Dharma from them." – Essence of Nectar
  • "If you are struck, it’s an initiation:/ If you take it as a blessing, you’ll be blessed./ A hard scolding is like a wrathful mantra/ That removes every hindrance." – Drogon Tsangpa Gyare
  • "By doing this, you purify karma that would [otherwise] make you wander in the lower realms for immeasurable millions of eons; this karma will occur in this life in terms of things harmful to body and mind—epidemics, famines, and so on. [Karma] is even purified by a scolding, or by nightmares. And you can overcome karma in one morning by giving your generated root merits to immeasurable numbers of buddhas or by keeping your vows." – The Sutra Requested by Kshitigarbha
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:01 am

bokki wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:34 am
what are you saying, dude?
I am saying we should listen to the advice of realised masters and Tantra.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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bokki
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by bokki » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:47 am

Grigoris,
thank you for your reply. very much.
since i opinionate (sry, zen folks, lol) that you are a senior practitioner, i will try to reply to some detail,
by some words.

first, not to nitpick, how can anyone not realized know if the teacher is realized?

anyway, ill share a little of my ..karma lol..
when 19..back in '82, i landed at narita san, not having a teacher, not having a single address, not even ever talked to anyone in japan,
i had, in my pocket..150$
at the information desk at the airport, a fool asked..
''where is the nearest temple from here?''
besides a strange look, i was offered a few choices, thanks for their help.
when i arrived to tokyo, my pocket had ..100$..

well, ill stop here...
its a total trip, sounding like i made it up.
but, only to say,
my late teacher is the only one i had all my life.
and it brings tears to my eyes every time i think of him, and all that he had done for me.


basically, what i am saying,
a teacher student relationship is destiny, karma, call it what you will.
so, why not,
search, search search,
but just dont bring a meter measure of you own standards.
things happen, even if we have no idea of how..
especially if talking about teachers.

finaly, imo only
in zen, the root teacher is the one under which the student gains enlightenment.
for example , just one of untold numbers, Dogen went to China..why? why?
to search for a teacher.

thank you for reminding me of a few things, Grigoris.
my pleasure.

bokki
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
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Grigoris
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:16 am

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:47 am
first, not to nitpick, how can anyone not realized know if the teacher is realized?
The texts giving the advice are written by realised masters of the past.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

kausalya
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:47 am
a teacher student relationship is destiny, karma, call it what you will.
If there is a "destiny" (destination), it's created/altered/maintained by your actions in the present moment.

All this means is that your relationship with your teacher is your business, and your devotion in this life will cause you to meet each other again. Certainly something to feel joyful about!

It's dangerous to think/act otherwise if we want to meet with appropriate dharma connections in the future... to be honest, this is why I try to refrain from speculating about others at all in these matters (unless help is requested).
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

SilenceMonkey
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by SilenceMonkey » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:42 am

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recently wrote an excellent book on many of these concerns. It's about how to find a guru, evaluate a guru, relate with a guru, and understand the guru-disciple relationship in general.

It's called "The Guru Drinks Bourbon?"

Bundokji
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Bundokji » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:41 pm

I am new to all of this and i ve read the whole thread. I am still unable to tell with clarity what is the exact difference between a guru and a teacher.

The only technicality was offered by Malcolm
The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
Is there a difference in terms of expectations? or is it a mere perception holding the guru to a higher status than the teacher?

Thanks

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bokki
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Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by bokki » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:03 pm

in my ignorance, i can only testify as to what happened, i dont know any guru, except ppl like ramana i sri nisargadata, or ug, never met them, but the ir words ring true, aND FAR
i had a teacher, an osho, due to respect and work, a Roshi, but in mine mind a ZENJI. well, i dont care bout any differences between words such as teacher or guru, but the only thing that ill caution about, dont follow freaks, with luck you may find an enlightened person, that will prove to be the ultimate robber, feed u, set u up, and take away all u got in this small mind...
hmmm , cant think of him now, my eyes water, my throat chokes...

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