Disagreeing with Guru

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Tenma
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Tenma » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:56 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:35 am
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:09 am
I never stated such a thing. The traditional recommendation is to observe a guru for 12 years before taking empowerments.
12 years. Thank you. I was not sure if I remembered correctly
Once one has taken empowerment, that person is one’s guru whether one has studied then for 12 years or one day.
I have had teachers that came closer to fulfilling the role of the guru than quite a few of those that gave me empowerments (ie turned up one time, gave some empowerments and vanished).
Nevertheless, the definition of a guru is very precise in Vajryana. The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
So a lama doesn't become one's guru by having them recite some stuff and then taking refuge in front of them?

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20137
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:50 am

Mantrik wrote: Yes. :)

I think the other apect I was thinking of was the inner Guruyoga:

Gyalwai Nyugu Rinpoche (Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche) from the Guruyoga Practice Guide:

'When we rest in the state of visualising the Guru’s appearance inseparable from one’s own
mind, we realise the meaning that this state, free from discriminative thoughts or attachments
and possessing clarity, is just our ordinary mind merging with the Guru’s wisdom mind. As
our view deepens, we finally recognise the definitive ultimate meaning of emptiness which is
the inner self-nature Guru. Continuing to rest in the pure basic nature of one’s mind is the
inner Guru Yoga.''
There is no difference between one's inner nature and Vajradhara/Samantabhadra. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Mantrik
Former staff member
Posts: 1919
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jul 12, 2018 8:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:50 am
Mantrik wrote: Yes. :)

I think the other apect I was thinking of was the inner Guruyoga:

Gyalwai Nyugu Rinpoche (Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche) from the Guruyoga Practice Guide:

'When we rest in the state of visualising the Guru’s appearance inseparable from one’s own
mind, we realise the meaning that this state, free from discriminative thoughts or attachments
and possessing clarity, is just our ordinary mind merging with the Guru’s wisdom mind. As
our view deepens, we finally recognise the definitive ultimate meaning of emptiness which is
the inner self-nature Guru. Continuing to rest in the pure basic nature of one’s mind is the
inner Guru Yoga.''
There is no difference between one's inner nature and Vajradhara/Samantabhadra. ;)
Yes, as I posted 'a Guruyoga without a specific human form'.

I was also considering White A and Thigle absorbing, unifying and integrating all in that particular Guruyoga.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Queequeg
Global Moderator
Posts: 8174
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:24 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Queequeg » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:51 pm

Moderator Note: This thread has been moved from Discovering Mahayana sub-forum to the Mahayana sub-forum. A shadow topic remains in the Discovering Mahayana sub-forum menu but will redirect to the Mahayana sub-forum. The reason for doing so is that the Discovering Mahayana sub-forum is fully moderated and every post requires review and approval by a mod. In the Mahayana sub-forum, this discussion will no longer be fully moderated.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by bokki » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:34 am

grigoris
Matthew, given you don't have a guru, I fail to see why you should be concerned.
dude, given that you are not a teacher, not a guru,
you make a discrimination between teacher and guru,
freely advise on 15 years, and other stuff,
do you think that anyone in their sane mind should listen to your advice?
i hope not,
but then,
i could be wrong.
you just may prove to be saviour of us all,
thanx to your advice.
of course, you may do many things,
that you forbid others to do..
here.
what are you saying, dude?
''listen to me, not your teacher!''???
hmmm
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

User avatar
Johnny Dangerous
Global Moderator
Posts: 9471
Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:58 pm
Location: Olympia WA
Contact:

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am

Treating various instructions on finding a Guru as if they are meant to be taken as that exclusive, prescriptive, or literal is a little questionable, in my opinion, but whatever.

However, I would say that if someone has to ask "is this person my Guru"..then most likely, they are not your Guru. Whatever other factors come into play. If someone is your Guru, you should probably know.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

kausalya
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:18 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:47 am
However, I would say that if someone has to ask "is this person my Guru"..then most likely, they are not your Guru. Whatever other factors come into play. If someone is your Guru, you should probably know.

Ask the teacher and see what he says...
  • "Avoid unexamined Dharma relationships./ After examining take heed: pay respect to the guru./ Things are such that in the future you will not lack a guru,/ For karma does not vanish." – Geshe Potowa
  • "The result congruous with the cause of paying your guru proper respect in this life/ Is meeting with supreme spiritual guides in all future lives/ And hearing the completely unmistaken Dharma from them." – Essence of Nectar
  • "If you are struck, it’s an initiation:/ If you take it as a blessing, you’ll be blessed./ A hard scolding is like a wrathful mantra/ That removes every hindrance." – Drogon Tsangpa Gyare
  • "By doing this, you purify karma that would [otherwise] make you wander in the lower realms for immeasurable millions of eons; this karma will occur in this life in terms of things harmful to body and mind—epidemics, famines, and so on. [Karma] is even purified by a scolding, or by nightmares. And you can overcome karma in one morning by giving your generated root merits to immeasurable numbers of buddhas or by keeping your vows." – The Sutra Requested by Kshitigarbha
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20137
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:01 am

bokki wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:34 am
what are you saying, dude?
I am saying we should listen to the advice of realised masters and Tantra.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by bokki » Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:47 am

Grigoris,
thank you for your reply. very much.
since i opinionate (sry, zen folks, lol) that you are a senior practitioner, i will try to reply to some detail,
by some words.

first, not to nitpick, how can anyone not realized know if the teacher is realized?

anyway, ill share a little of my ..karma lol..
when 19..back in '82, i landed at narita san, not having a teacher, not having a single address, not even ever talked to anyone in japan,
i had, in my pocket..150$
at the information desk at the airport, a fool asked..
''where is the nearest temple from here?''
besides a strange look, i was offered a few choices, thanks for their help.
when i arrived to tokyo, my pocket had ..100$..

well, ill stop here...
its a total trip, sounding like i made it up.
but, only to say,
my late teacher is the only one i had all my life.
and it brings tears to my eyes every time i think of him, and all that he had done for me.


basically, what i am saying,
a teacher student relationship is destiny, karma, call it what you will.
so, why not,
search, search search,
but just dont bring a meter measure of you own standards.
things happen, even if we have no idea of how..
especially if talking about teachers.

finaly, imo only
in zen, the root teacher is the one under which the student gains enlightenment.
for example , just one of untold numbers, Dogen went to China..why? why?
to search for a teacher.

thank you for reminding me of a few things, Grigoris.
my pleasure.

bokki
Another log on the fire,
10,000 frogs singing in the rain,
burst into flames.
- Linda Anderson

User avatar
Grigoris
Former staff member
Posts: 20137
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jul 23, 2018 11:16 am

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:47 am
first, not to nitpick, how can anyone not realized know if the teacher is realized?
The texts giving the advice are written by realised masters of the past.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

kausalya
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Mon Jul 23, 2018 2:43 pm

bokki wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 10:47 am
a teacher student relationship is destiny, karma, call it what you will.
If there is a "destiny" (destination), it's created/altered/maintained by your actions in the present moment.

All this means is that your relationship with your teacher is your business, and your devotion in this life will cause you to meet each other again. Certainly something to feel joyful about!

It's dangerous to think/act otherwise if we want to meet with appropriate dharma connections in the future... to be honest, this is why I try to refrain from speculating about others at all in these matters (unless help is requested).
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

SilenceMonkey
Posts: 47
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 9:54 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by SilenceMonkey » Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:42 am

Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recently wrote an excellent book on many of these concerns. It's about how to find a guru, evaluate a guru, relate with a guru, and understand the guru-disciple relationship in general.

It's called "The Guru Drinks Bourbon?"

Bundokji
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 8:51 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Bundokji » Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:41 pm

I am new to all of this and i ve read the whole thread. I am still unable to tell with clarity what is the exact difference between a guru and a teacher.

The only technicality was offered by Malcolm
The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
Is there a difference in terms of expectations? or is it a mere perception holding the guru to a higher status than the teacher?

Thanks

User avatar
bokki
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:45 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by bokki » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:03 pm

in my ignorance, i can only testify as to what happened, i dont know any guru, except ppl like ramana i sri nisargadata, or ug, never met them, but the ir words ring true, aND FAR
i had a teacher, an osho, due to respect and work, a Roshi, but in mine mind a ZENJI. well, i dont care bout any differences between words such as teacher or guru, but the only thing that ill caution about, dont follow freaks, with luck you may find an enlightened person, that will prove to be the ultimate robber, feed u, set u up, and take away all u got in this small mind...
hmmm , cant think of him now, my eyes water, my throat chokes...

ollaimh
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 3:38 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by ollaimh » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:25 am

SilenceMonkey wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:42 am
Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recently wrote an excellent book on many of these concerns. It's about how to find a guru, evaluate a guru, relate with a guru, and understand the guru-disciple relationship in general.

It's called "The Guru Drinks Bourbon?"
unfortunately that book is full of contradictions, such as his list of qualities reguired in a guru, then praise for trungpa, who violated almost every item on the list, and in fact dkr himself violates about half. so apparantly it is just all window dressing.

amanitamusc
Posts: 1636
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by amanitamusc » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:43 am

ollaimh wrote:
Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:25 am
SilenceMonkey wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 11:42 am
Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche recently wrote an excellent book on many of these concerns. It's about how to find a guru, evaluate a guru, relate with a guru, and understand the guru-disciple relationship in general.

It's called "The Guru Drinks Bourbon?"
unfortunately that book is full of contradictions, such as his list of qualities reguired in a guru, then praise for trungpa, who violated almost every item on the list, and in fact dkr himself violates about half. so apparantly it is just all window dressing.
Welcome to Dharma Wheel. :popcorn:

smcj
Posts: 6318
Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by smcj » Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:46 am

it's just that life will probably go better for you if you do, assuming they know you and care for you/are ethical.
...and have some level of attainment. My brother knows me, cares for me, and is ethical. That doesn’t qualify him to give me sound advice about Dharma.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

TrimePema
Posts: 198
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by TrimePema » Mon Dec 24, 2018 9:33 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 9:41 pm
I am new to all of this and i ve read the whole thread. I am still unable to tell with clarity what is the exact difference between a guru and a teacher.

The only technicality was offered by Malcolm
The guru is one from whom empowerment and samaya Is recieved.
Is there a difference in terms of expectations? or is it a mere perception holding the guru to a higher status than the teacher?

Thanks
In this sense, a teacher is anyone who teaches you anything in the Buddha Dharma - which can be any type of being - you can consider an ant a teacher if you learn compassion from it... but that kind of teacher will not be giving you an empowerment and may or may not even know that they have taught you anything. A guru is anyone who bestows upon you empowerment and establishes samaya with you. This is done purposefully by both the guru and the disciple (you). However, the term teacher is generally used interchangeably with guru but guru is not used instead of teacher in this sense.

Don't get hung up. Just be careful about who you establish samaya with and make sure they are qualified and authentic at the very least! Do your research...

kausalya
Posts: 211
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:52 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by kausalya » Mon Dec 24, 2018 4:41 pm

Typical of my one-shot answers, likely to be controversial/provocative when they don't need to be:

If your "disagreement" is to the level where you perceive actual flaws in the person that you would personally correct, you're not treating them like a guru, meaning they aren't your Guru. The label "Guru" comes when you see the benefit from your own side of behaving in a reverential way toward a person, and your devotion is complete & implicit.

Before that, at best, they are a teacher, or worse, an ordinary person you're seeking a remedy from.

"Guru" in Sanskrit means "heavy," as in, "heavy with (sthg.); are you carrying a bag of rocks that they've given you, or jewels? Where does the distinction arise? Can you experiment with a different view & see what happens?

:tongue:
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

Silent Bob1
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:38 pm

Re: Disagreeing with Guru

Post by Silent Bob1 » Tue Dec 25, 2018 1:18 am

My own experience has been in line with Gregoris' posts, and it is my understanding that your root guru is the one who gave you pointing-out instructions that you actually understood.. Without a direct experience of the nature of mind, mediated through the teacher's blessing, all the discussion about samaya is only theoretical.

I studied with my first teacher for 12 years before deciding that there were issues of trust with him that I hadn't been able to either resolve or ignore. He didn't believe in just randomly bestowing empowerments, so we didn't have that samaya connection. He was also much given to "pointing-out by signs", which always flew right past me, except for a vague feeling of "something happened just then".

There was so much misinformation floating around in those pre-internet days, I appreciate that there's now a forum for questions of this sort.

Post Reply

Return to “Mahāyāna Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Astus, Sentient Light and 56 guests