proclaiming awakening

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Simon E.
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:08 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:34 am
I heard Garchen Rinpoche said that he does not have much realization or some such
words but he is beyond all suffering.
Tibetan Lama's have this style so it seems.Humble.
This.

I have heard a number of well regarded Lamas with obvious attainments and even siddhis state that they are not enlightened.
Does this put me off them?

1) Not at all. It attracts me to them for their honesty, and
2) Gives me a glimpse of the huge Everest like heights that Enlightenment actually refers to.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:09 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:54 am
I don’t doubt that the Dalai Lama and some other living Buddhist teachers in all traditions are enlightened, but why the reluctance to say so? The Buddha wasn’t shy about it. We entered the path presumably because we had faith that the Buddha was actually enlightened. I don’t think the five monks who received the Buddha’s first teaching would have believed and followed the Buddha had he said, “Here is a path I believe leads to awakening and the end of suffering, but I’m not.”

So, why shouldn’t living Buddhist teachers acknowledge their attainments?
to my eyes, even if the modern Buddhas base recognition is the same as the ancient's, the merits and ornaments of the historical Buddha are incomparable.

¿By what cause did the historical Buddha appeared? wasn't seen before, systematic liberation didn't existed before.

Historical Buddha has certain authority among people that in general moderns doesn't have.

:shrug:
what are you doing

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:22 pm

Thinking about this last night, I remembered a fragment of the Diamond Sutra which was easy to find.

In Hui-Neng’s commentary of the Diamond Sutra, he introduces section 7,
Realization without attainment is called true realization; teaching without preaching is called true teaching. Therefore the sutra follows up with a section on no attainment and no preaching.
Section 7 of the Diamond Sutra,
“Subhuti, what do you think—has the Realized One attained unexcelled complete perfect enlightenment? Has the Realized One any doctrine to preach?”

Subhuti said, “As I understand the principles expounded by the Realized One, there is no fixed state called unexcelled complete perfect enlightenment, and there is no fixed doctrine for the Realized One to preach.”
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:24 pm

Astus wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:53 am
clyde wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 11:10 pm
The Buddha proclaimed
The regular affirmation of the Buddha's enlightenment all over the sutras is not really about what he claimed but about affirming Buddhism as true. That is why you can find that statements about the Buddha come to be grander and grander as you go from the Nikayas towards the Tantras.
reluctant to talk about their attainments or that of their students
There is little need for that when the system does that for you. For instance, a Zen master is supposed to be an equal of the Buddha by the fact of being affirmed as a Dharma heir; similarly, a tulku - i.e. nirmanakaya, or the telling Chinese term "living Buddha" (huofo 活佛) - is a fairly obvious expression defining the status of someone as enlightened.
Astus;

The Buddha’s affirmation wasn’t merely claiming that the path was true; he claimed he was awakened and this was the path. It would have been a hollow claim if he hadn’t awakened.

About “the system”, just as I believe some Buddhist teachers are enlightened (at least to some degree), I don’t believe that all Buddhist teachers are enlightened regardless of their status or title.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

Motova
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Motova » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:36 pm

Doesn't the Karmapa have the black hat ceremony where he finds his hat through clairvoyance?

I also heard from my Vietnamese friend that in Asia the display of siddhis is more common than in the west....
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:46 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:22 pm
Thinking about this last night, I remembered a fragment of the Diamond Sutra which was easy to find.

In Hui-Neng’s commentary of the Diamond Sutra, he introduces section 7,
Realization without attainment is called true realization; teaching without preaching is called true teaching. Therefore the sutra follows up with a section on no attainment and no preaching.
Section 7 of the Diamond Sutra,
“Subhuti, what do you think—has the Realized One attained unexcelled complete perfect enlightenment? Has the Realized One any doctrine to preach?”

Subhuti said, “As I understand the principles expounded by the Realized One, there is no fixed state called unexcelled complete perfect enlightenment, and there is no fixed doctrine for the Realized One to preach.”
bang! I do love this quotes <3
what are you doing

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:39 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:51 am
I’m a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea of ‘attainment’. Actually I borrowed a book from the library once, and although I don’t remember much about it, it had an aphorism in the flyleaf in some strange language, the translation of which was given as ‘the unattainable is attained by non-attainment’. [It wasn’t a Buddhist book but I thought it was a very Buddhist expression.]
Wayfarer; I’m also uncomfortable with “attainments” (See my post above with a quote from the Diamond Sutra.), but the Buddha spoke openly of states experienced in meditation and also stages of enlightenment, and about followers who had achieved these states and reached these stages.

My point is a wish for greater transparency from our teachers.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Astus
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am

clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:24 pm
The Buddha’s affirmation wasn’t merely claiming that the path was true
It's not the Buddha's claim, it is the tradition's claim, the disciples' validation of themselves by asserting the trustworthiness of their teacher.
I don’t believe that all Buddhist teachers are enlightened regardless of their status or title
Apart from the Buddha and the Dharma, the third jewel is the Sangha. Trust in the Sangha is as important as trust in the other two.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

Simon E.
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:01 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:39 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:51 am
I’m a bit uncomfortable with the whole idea of ‘attainment’. Actually I borrowed a book from the library once, and although I don’t remember much about it, it had an aphorism in the flyleaf in some strange language, the translation of which was given as ‘the unattainable is attained by non-attainment’. [It wasn’t a Buddhist book but I thought it was a very Buddhist expression.]
Wayfarer; I’m also uncomfortable with “attainments” (See my post above with a quote from the Diamond Sutra.), but the Buddha spoke openly of states experienced in meditation and also stages of enlightenment, and about followers who had achieved these states and reached these stages.

My point is a wish for greater transparency from our teachers.
There is no pan-Buddhism.
Therefore there is no single Buddhist culture and no single view of the desirability of attainments or the degree to which the internal states of teachers are transparent or opaque.
And that's quite ok with me.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:34 pm

Astus wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:37 am
clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 5:24 pm
The Buddha’s affirmation wasn’t merely claiming that the path was true
It's not the Buddha's claim, it is the tradition's claim, the disciples' validation of themselves by asserting the trustworthiness of their teacher.
Yes, but that misses my point that “he claimed he was awakened” and made the same claim regarding many of his followers. Why don’t living Buddhist teachers do the same? Or are none of them enlightened?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:36 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:01 pm
There is no pan-Buddhism.
Therefore there is no single Buddhist culture and no single view . . .
And that’s wonderful. But I have yet to hear an answer to why Buddhist teachers don’t share with their students what they have experienced and realized within their tradition.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Aryjna
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:46 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:36 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:01 pm
There is no pan-Buddhism.
Therefore there is no single Buddhist culture and no single view . . .
And that’s wonderful. But I have yet to hear an answer to why Buddhist teachers don’t share with their students what they have experienced and realized within their tradition.
Why are you so sure that they don't share?

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:53 pm

I have heard a few Vipassana teachers publicly speak (and write) about their jhana experiences, but except for those teachers, I’ve not heard of other Buddhist teachers speaking of their meditation experiences or realizations.

If you have heard of a Buddhist teacher publicly speaking of their meditation experiences and/or realizations, please share.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Aryjna
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:56 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:53 pm
I have heard a few Vipassana teachers publicly speak (and write) about their jhana experiences, but except for those teachers, I’ve not heard of other Buddhist teachers speaking of their meditation experiences or realizations.

If you have heard of a Buddhist teacher publicly speaking of their meditation experiences and/or realizations, please share.
There are many who share. But in Vajrayana this is obviously meant only for the students who are receiving the specific teachings and not made publicly available.

Simon E.
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:27 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:36 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 3:01 pm
There is no pan-Buddhism.
Therefore there is no single Buddhist culture and no single view . . .
And that’s wonderful. But I have yet to hear an answer to why Buddhist teachers don’t share with their students what they have experienced and realized within their tradition.
The only way that you will get an answer as to why many Vajrayana teachers do not share with non Vajrayana students any experiences and realisations they may have had, is to become a Vajrayana student.
And if that makes it sound like the Vajrayana is a closed system ..thats because it is.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Astus
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:29 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:34 pm
Why don’t living Buddhist teachers do the same? Or are none of them enlightened?
Because such a claim is basically counterproductive. It only deepens the divide between teacher and student, strengthens unrealistic expectations, and generates an unhealthy personality cult. On the other hand, saying that one's teacher was a great being, a buddha in person, etc., means that the teaching transmitted is beneficial, valuable, and true.

"If he claims to have gained something, he is arrogant. If he claims to have realized something, he is arrogant. If he claims to have attained liberation. he is arrogant."
(The Definitive Vinaya, in Treasury of Mahayana Sutras, p 271)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:19 pm

The Buddha was expressly open, not closed, with his teachings and didn’t seem concerned about speaking because “it only deepens the divide between teacher and student, strengthens unrealistic expectations, and generates an unhealthy personality cult.” We read this of the Buddha and other Buddhist teachers in the suttas, sutras, and other ancient texts.

It may be that this reluctance is a modern phenomena; perhaps warranted, perhaps not.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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Aryjna
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:24 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:19 pm
The Buddha was expressly open, not closed, with his teachings and didn’t seem concerned about speaking because “it only deepens the divide between teacher and student, strengthens unrealistic expectations, and generates an unhealthy personality cult.” We read this of the Buddha and other Buddhist teachers in the suttas, sutras, and other ancient texts.

It may be that this reluctance is a modern phenomena; perhaps warranted, perhaps not.
Though my knowledge of the Pali canon is extremely limited, I am sure Shakyamuni didn't go around shouting to anyone listening that he is awakened. He gave teachings after being requested to do so repeatedly. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to show up at public talks and claim they are enlughtened.

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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Astus » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:34 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:19 pm
We read this of the Buddha and other Buddhist teachers in the suttas, sutras, and other ancient texts.
Apart from the Buddha himself, who do you know of who proclaimed their attainment, especially in front of lay people?
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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clyde
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by clyde » Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:56 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:24 pm
Though my knowledge of the Pali canon is extremely limited, I am sure Shakyamuni didn't go around shouting to anyone listening that he is awakened. He gave teachings after being requested to do so repeatedly. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to show up at public talks and claim they are enlughtened.
Actually, the Buddha did exactly that with the first person he met after awakening. Upaka, a wandering monk, met the Buddha on a trail and asked, “Who is your teacher?” The Buddha answered, “I have no teacher” and “I am an arahant.”

Even when he meets with the five monks, before they asked, the Buddha said,
'Don't address the Tathagata  by name and as "friend." The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.’

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism

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