proclaiming awakening

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Aryjna
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jul 15, 2018 10:02 pm

clyde wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:56 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jul 15, 2018 9:24 pm
Though my knowledge of the Pali canon is extremely limited, I am sure Shakyamuni didn't go around shouting to anyone listening that he is awakened. He gave teachings after being requested to do so repeatedly. It is unreasonable to expect teachers to show up at public talks and claim they are enlughtened.
Actually, the Buddha did exactly that with the first person he met after awakening. Upaka, a wandering monk, met the Buddha on a trail and asked, “Who is your teacher?” The Buddha answered, “I have no teacher” and “I am an arahant.”

Even when he meets with the five monks, before they asked, the Buddha said,
'Don't address the Tathagata  by name and as "friend." The Tathagata, friends, is a worthy one, rightly self-awakened. Lend ear, friends: the Deathless has been attained. I will instruct you. I will teach you the Dhamma. Practicing as instructed, you will in no long time reach & remain in the supreme goal of the holy life for which clansmen rightly go forth from home into homelessness, knowing & realizing it for yourselves in the here & now.’

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
These were monks. There are many stories about teachers approaching students in this way, for example many of the stories of the 84 mahasiddhas. Even now teachers do not hide their qualifications, as far as I know. But this is not the same as making declarations in public talks, where a large part of the audience also have no interest in receiving teachings and practicing.

SunWuKong
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Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by SunWuKong » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:38 am

The only thing worth attaining is utterly indescribable, so it's not possible in any terms to say what it is that's been attained.

Tell me what an attainment is, and I'll tell you who has it. On this there is no argeement, nor can there ever be.

You cannot catch wind, but you can ride it.

For a fool its like being struck by lightening, for the wise it's like playing pin the tail on the donkey.

Define "enlightenment"

Define "samadhi"

Define "kensho"

Go ahead, make my day.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Simon E.
Posts: 5637
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:24 am

I am answering only because I suspect no answer..which would actually be wisest..will result in your assuming that your points are unanswerable.
'Kensho' is is a term only used in Zen. Whether it refers to a phenomenon exclusive to Zen I have no idea.

Within the Vajrayana* there are ways to test 'samadhi' although much Vajrayana teaching sets little store by it.

'Enlightenment' is your natural state. Not a goal, target, nor something subject to analysis.

The issue is not defining it. It is realising it. And that according to the Vajrayana needs a qualified teacher. Who in the Vajrayana is unlikely to discuss any 'awakening' they might have publically.

Basically it comes down to shraddha. You are either on or off the Vajrayana bus.

* Other schools of the Mahayana are available.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

smcj
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Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by smcj » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 am

If you have heard of a Buddhist teacher publicly speaking of their meditation experiences and/or realizations, please share.
This is second hand hearsay, but supposedly in the “80s Zong R was giving the Guhyasamaja initiation in India, and during the wong he said that the greatest living practitioner of that particular tantra was a western monk with a beard living in L.A. That monk was also heard to say that Zong R was his root guru.

But I wasn’t there myself. I just met an FPMT guy who mentioned it in passing. So take that however you like.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

smcj
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Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am

Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by smcj » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:37 am

Define "enlightenment"

Define "samadhi"
I think samadhi is a strong shamatha practice, being able to place your mind on a desired object at will without distractions or stupor for extended periods of time.

I think enlightenment is the removal of limiting obscurations (karmic, emotional, habitual, ignorant) and the resulting uncorrupted full expression of one’s Buddha Nature. I’ve heard the term “sangye” means something like that.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Sentient Light
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Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2016 8:40 pm
Location: Pacifica, California

Re: proclaiming awakening

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:07 pm

clyde wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 6:56 am
Of course, it’s Wrong Speech. But the rule doesn’t apply to spiritual attainments that one has attained.
This is incorrect. There is a Vinaya rule against divulging any attainments to laypersons. They can talk about attainments all they want amongst each other (and I do believe this includes free discussion among other sramanas). So the reason we don't hear about things as laypersons is because we're not allowed to.

There's a text in the Dirgha-agama that gives an explanation why, and it basically amounts to avoiding criticism and the burden of laypeople challenging monks to "prove" their attainments by means of psychic powers, which the Buddha seemed to think would ruin the reputation of the sangha and waste their time.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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