mental habits

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javier.espinoza.t
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mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm

mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.

how such subtle habit can be stopped?

I mean, we know that's illusory because we like buddha or because we figured out, but how can we actually stop it? this is not a kind of philosophy.

this habit it is like a riverun at full speed!

what did Buddha thaught on this? wich hinayana, mahayana technique?

must I wait until it extinguishes by means of karma-becoming-to-end? I don't feel capable
what are you doing

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Re: mental habits

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:48 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.

how such subtle habit can be stopped?

I mean, we know that's illusory because we like buddha or because we figured out, but how can we actually stop it? this is not a kind of philosophy.

this habit it is like a riverun at full speed!

what did Buddha thaught on this? wich hinayana, mahayana technique?

must I wait until it extinguishes by means of karma-becoming-to-end? I don't feel capable
You can't really overtly stop it as I understand it, you can kind of "trace it back", and eventually look at the one who is dividing subject and object, and get a momentary collapse of the whole thing.. but that's just one map among many, not the territory.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

gb9810
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Re: mental habits

Post by gb9810 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 pm

my 2 cents:
no need to actively stop 'em. watch your mind enough and you'll see and appreciate how they, like everything else, self-arise and self-dissolve.
put it differently, rest in the natural state (or make that the mental habit?! :) & the rest kind of takes care of itself

otherwise, I suppose there are various techniques for gaining both a conceptual understanding as well as actual experiences of emptiness/lack-of-self..etc. no?

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:06 am

gb9810 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 pm
my 2 cents:
no need to actively stop 'em. watch your mind enough and you'll see and appreciate how they, like everything else, self-arise and self-dissolve.
put it differently, rest in the natural state (or make that the mental habit?! :) & the rest kind of takes care of itself

otherwise, I suppose there are various techniques for gaining both a conceptual understanding as well as actual experiences of emptiness/lack-of-self..etc. no?
for long time i took the same position while trying to apply method, "it's ok, it will fall", "i just have to watch", "i should just contemplate", and did nothing to watch closer, to vigilate this, and see well... but i'm afraid this passiveness was a big mistake.
what are you doing

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Re: mental habits

Post by gb9810 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:31 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 1:06 am
gb9810 wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:25 pm
my 2 cents:
no need to actively stop 'em. watch your mind enough and you'll see and appreciate how they, like everything else, self-arise and self-dissolve.
put it differently, rest in the natural state (or make that the mental habit?! :) & the rest kind of takes care of itself

otherwise, I suppose there are various techniques for gaining both a conceptual understanding as well as actual experiences of emptiness/lack-of-self..etc. no?
for long time i took the same position while trying to apply method, "it's ok, it will fall", "i just have to watch", "i should just contemplate", and did nothing to watch closer, to vigilate this, and see well... but i'm afraid this passiveness was a big mistake.
interesting. I'd say after 25 yrs., "watch my mind" ended up "it" for me .. as simple as that. And I'd also say it's quite an active engagement, not passive at all. :)

I don't feel there is a one-size-fits-all approach here, at least at our stage, which is why a teacher is important. Even for myself, who knows, I don't rule out the next moment finding everything to be up-side-down and needing additional tools/tricks to deal with even subtler clingings...

But so far the method's been brilliant. I didn't appreciate or get it when my teacher said it the first time years ago, but after it being the same answer to my various questions, I guess I eventually took it to heart. Of course learning about the views + practices along the way must have helped I am sure, but at the core, that's it..

though re-reading your post, you were asking more about actual methods.. there I suspect everything I know you know already! :)

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Re: mental habits

Post by muni » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:58 am

Whatever is effective.
Meditation on impermanence of all can always. Relaxes and so frees from the tightness of grasping.
:meditate:

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Re: mental habits

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:26 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.

how such subtle habit can be stopped?

I mean, we know that's illusory because we like buddha or because we figured out, but how can we actually stop it? this is not a kind of philosophy.

this habit it is like a riverun at full speed!

what did Buddha thaught on this? wich hinayana, mahayana technique?

must I wait until it extinguishes by means of karma-becoming-to-end? I don't feel capable
There is no reason to stop it, even if that was possible. Attempts to stop mental formations usually strengthen them even while making them more subtle.
The point is not to own them. They have no owner. They arise, they pass like clouds, or ripples in a stream. No technique will help or is needed. What is needed is prajna. This arises with awareness of no permanent self.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: mental habits

Post by seeker242 » Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:46 am

Dhammapada Verse 282: Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase.
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Jul 30, 2018 6:07 pm

seeker242 wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:46 am
Dhammapada Verse 282: Indeed, wisdom is born of meditation; without meditation wisdom is lost. Knowing this twofold path of gain and loss of wisdom, one should conduct oneself so that wisdom may increase.
thank you <3
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Re: mental habits

Post by boda » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:08 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.

how such subtle habit can be stopped?

I mean, we know that's illusory because we like buddha or because we figured out, but how can we actually stop it? this is not a kind of philosophy.

this habit it is like a riverun at full speed!

what did Buddha thaught on this? wich hinayana, mahayana technique?

must I wait until it extinguishes by means of karma-becoming-to-end? I don't feel capable
What you describe is basically the activity of the neural default mode network (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Default_mode_network)

Meditation can cause structural changes in areas of the DMN such as the temporoparietal junction, posterior cingulate cortex, and precuneus have been found in meditation practitioners. There is reduced activation and reduced functional connectivity of the DMN in long-term practitioners.

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Re: mental habits

Post by muni » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:27 am

mindful attention, open awareness and loving kindness. By practicing these, we can let go of negative mental patterns and expand our heart and mind, bringing about joy, peace and inner freedom.
Anam Thubten.
:meditate:

muni
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Re: mental habits

Post by muni » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:33 am

We are all born nakedly and death has no clothes. In between, we can choose which clothes we want to wear; those harming us or those for lasting peace.

In a dream I looked down to earth. I saw a beautiful boll, without borders, without politics, without races, without religions; no any obstruction was there available. The boll was peacefully playing, turning round, no any confused being was there. It was there playing in the care of all embracing spaciousness.

Then "I woke up" and said sh't ….out of my way! While the boll peacefully was turning round in its' spacious nature.
:meditate:

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Re: mental habits

Post by denise » Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:24 pm

occasionally, when on a mind rant....just say STOP

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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:30 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.

how such subtle habit can be stopped?

I mean, we know that's illusory because we like buddha or because we figured out, but how can we actually stop it? this is not a kind of philosophy.

this habit it is like a riverun at full speed!

what did Buddha thaught on this? wich hinayana, mahayana technique?

must I wait until it extinguishes by means of karma-becoming-to-end? I don't feel capable
The four immeasurables.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: mental habits

Post by Bundokji » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:12 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by: "subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality"

Do other mental habits have intrinsic qualities?

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Re: mental habits

Post by kirtu » Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:34 am

denise wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 3:24 pm
occasionally, when on a mind rant....just say STOP
PHAT!

Well, don't indulge in mind rants. Thinking something through is one thing but a "mind rant" should be cut when it arises. So called "mind rants" are all a result of negative emotions and never have anything positive to offer.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 am

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:12 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by: "subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality"

Do other mental habits have intrinsic qualities?
no, they don't; yet, they are there. By "here and there" "they" appear as formation.

we all know that mental formations aren't real, like an ilusion, having the nature of not having nature, problem is how to stop the habit of creating. yep, all the suffering seems to be our own invention.

so i'm looking for the mahayana method of dealing with this.

a friend up said what buddha said, do meditation. so in the black-box of that endeavour lies an answer.

boddhicitta do helps a lot, things get far more clear, even if seems to be like replacing things instead of stoping.
what are you doing

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Re: mental habits

Post by Bundokji » Fri Aug 24, 2018 11:22 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 am
no, they don't; yet, they are there. By "here and there" "they" appear as formation.
If i understand you correctly, because things appear to you as "there" you assumed that they are formations, and through them, you knew that there is something "here" which is inferred but not directly experienced.

Why the above is a problem?
we all know that mental formations aren't real, like an ilusion, having the nature of not having nature, problem is how to stop the habit of creating. yep, all the suffering seems to be our own invention.
When you say "formations are not real" in relation to what? It has to be in relation to another idea (or another formation to use your own language) of what is real. If you truly believe that it has no nature, then describing it as an illusion cannot be true (because the nature of illusion is being illusive). When you say "all the suffering seems to be our own invention" and if you truly believe what you are saying, you would be free from suffering.

So, would it be an idea to see that you are making claims which you don't truly believe in? More generally, when you are faced with a contradiction between what you say and how you act, actions usually serve as a more honest indication of what you truly believe.

Would it be possible that the teachings of "not self" are unwarranted conclusion in your case?
so i'm looking for the mahayana method of dealing with this.

a friend up said what buddha said, do meditation. so in the black-box of that endeavour lies an answer.

boddhicitta do helps a lot, things get far more clear, even if seems to be like replacing things instead of stoping.
The vast majority of humans believe in a self, including you obviously. You can choose a different approach to meditation by justifying self view relying on your own experience. Investigate why you believe in a self, what justifies this belief (there are many by the way). You can begin by making a list of the reasons if you want to.

By the way, i am not better than you. I am not free from self view.

Good luck

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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:17 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:12 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:11 pm
mental habit of discourse lies on mental habit of grasping to mental formation, mental habit of grasping on mental formations lies in mental habit of the division of a self and an other, but mental habit of division of a self and an other is a subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality.
Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by: "subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality"

Do other mental habits have intrinsic qualities?
no, they don't; yet, they are there. By "here and there" "they" appear as formation.

we all know that mental formations aren't real, like an ilusion, having the nature of not having nature, problem is how to stop the habit of creating. yep, all the suffering seems to be our own invention.

so i'm looking for the mahayana method of dealing with this.

a friend up said what buddha said, do meditation. so in the black-box of that endeavour lies an answer.

boddhicitta do helps a lot, things get far more clear, even if seems to be like replacing things instead of stoping.
Again, the four immeasurables is the mahayana method for dealing with this. Read The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech and The Words of My Perfect Teacher.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:58 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 am
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:12 am


Excuse my ignorance, but what do you mean by: "subtle mental formation not an intrinsic quality"

Do other mental habits have intrinsic qualities?
no, they don't; yet, they are there. By "here and there" "they" appear as formation.

we all know that mental formations aren't real, like an ilusion, having the nature of not having nature, problem is how to stop the habit of creating. yep, all the suffering seems to be our own invention.

so i'm looking for the mahayana method of dealing with this.

a friend up said what buddha said, do meditation. so in the black-box of that endeavour lies an answer.

boddhicitta do helps a lot, things get far more clear, even if seems to be like replacing things instead of stoping.
Again, the four immeasurables is the mahayana method for dealing with this. Read The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech and The Words of My Perfect Teacher.
i don't know... but is evident that the portion of mahayana we know is just like "the peack of an iceberg"; it's obvious that boddhisattvas receives superior teachings as they get through superior bhumis.
what are you doing

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