mental habits

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
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Josef
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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:27 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:58 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:01 am


no, they don't; yet, they are there. By "here and there" "they" appear as formation.

we all know that mental formations aren't real, like an ilusion, having the nature of not having nature, problem is how to stop the habit of creating. yep, all the suffering seems to be our own invention.

so i'm looking for the mahayana method of dealing with this.

a friend up said what buddha said, do meditation. so in the black-box of that endeavour lies an answer.

boddhicitta do helps a lot, things get far more clear, even if seems to be like replacing things instead of stoping.
Again, the four immeasurables is the mahayana method for dealing with this. Read The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech and The Words of My Perfect Teacher.
i don't know... but is evident that the portion of mahayana we know is just like "the peack of an iceberg"; it's obvious that boddhisattvas receives superior teachings as they get through superior bhumis.
You’re seriously underestimating the power of these teachings.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:26 am

Josef wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:27 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:58 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:17 pm

Again, the four immeasurables is the mahayana method for dealing with this. Read The Nectar of Manjushri's Speech and The Words of My Perfect Teacher.
i don't know... but is evident that the portion of mahayana we know is just like "the peack of an iceberg"; it's obvious that boddhisattvas receives superior teachings as they get through superior bhumis.
You’re seriously underestimating the power of these teachings.
i'm not arguing that are valuable as method, i'm just pointing that i see them more as an ornament, a flag, a mark, a jewell, etc.

"if i'm practicing in the correct way, the four inconmesurables are atained spontaneously" but practicing what? shamata? vipassana? tantric method? selfliberation?

in this case i was asking for ghe Mahayana approach.

you see it is difficult to see them -the inconmesurables- as method, and a bit hard because ¿can i force myself to feel love? there is desire involved, and so defilement.

so in the direction where the four inconmesurable develops, there is the way. like a very valuable compass needed to navigate, but not the boat.

or is it that the four can be forced to happen? boddhisattvas might be radical but, are they fanatics?
what are you doing

amanitamusc
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Re: mental habits

Post by amanitamusc » Sun Aug 26, 2018 8:03 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:26 am
Josef wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:27 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:58 am


i don't know... but is evident that the portion of mahayana we know is just like "the peack of an iceberg"; it's obvious that boddhisattvas receives superior teachings as they get through superior bhumis.
You’re seriously underestimating the power of these teachings.
i'm not arguing that are valuable as method, i'm just pointing that i see them more as an ornament, a flag, a mark, a jewell, etc.

"if i'm practicing in the correct way, the four inconmesurables are atained spontaneously" but practicing what? shamata? vipassana? tantric method? selfliberation?

in this case i was asking for ghe Mahayana approach.

you see it is difficult to see them -the inconmesurables- as method, and a bit hard because ¿can i force myself to feel love? there is desire involved, and so defilement.

so in the direction where the four inconmesurable develops, there is the way. like a very valuable compass needed to navigate, but not the boat.

or is it that the four can be forced to happen? boddhisattvas might be radical but, are they fanatics?
The essence of Mahayana is explained very well in CHNN book "The Precious Vase"

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Josef
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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:24 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 6:26 am
Josef wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 3:27 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:58 am


i don't know... but is evident that the portion of mahayana we know is just like "the peack of an iceberg"; it's obvious that boddhisattvas receives superior teachings as they get through superior bhumis.
You’re seriously underestimating the power of these teachings.
i'm not arguing that are valuable as method, i'm just pointing that i see them more as an ornament, a flag, a mark, a jewell, etc.

"if i'm practicing in the correct way, the four inconmesurables are atained spontaneously" but practicing what? shamata? vipassana? tantric method? selfliberation?

in this case i was asking for ghe Mahayana approach.

you see it is difficult to see them -the inconmesurables- as method, and a bit hard because ¿can i force myself to feel love? there is desire involved, and so defilement.

so in the direction where the four inconmesurable develops, there is the way. like a very valuable compass needed to navigate, but not the boat.

or is it that the four can be forced to happen? boddhisattvas might be radical but, are they fanatics?
You actually meditate on them in a systematic way in the Mahayana approach. They are spontaneous in Dzogchen.
It is hard for you to see them as a method because you havent trained in them properly.
They are not "forced" to happen. They are cultivated through the point of view and methods in the books I recommended above and by countless teachers regularly.
And, they are the boat. The immeasurable of equanimity, the first one we train in is essentially an immersion in the view. If one is a Dzogchen practitioner that makes this practice the boat.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Location: Chile

Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:40 pm

Josef wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:24 pm

You actually meditate on them in a systematic way in the Mahayana approach. They are spontaneous in Dzogchen.
It is hard for you to see them as a method because you havent trained in them properly.
They are not "forced" to happen. They are cultivated through the point of view and methods in the books I recommended above and by countless teachers regularly.
And, they are the boat. The immeasurable of equanimity, the first one we train in is essentially an immersion in the view. If one is a Dzogchen practitioner that makes this practice the boat.
please, i don want to misc the dzogchen teaching thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

so, in the books and in many of book practitioners of mahayana the four are considered as method, got it, but ¿aren't mind formation?¿they diminish if they are not practiced?

¿what do you mean by meditation? ¿thought?¿action? ¿considerations? ¿belief?

so, ¿why are the four considered method and not indicators of the development of the training?

i'm somehow testing you guy's patience, i know, but believe it or not this is important to me.
what are you doing

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Josef
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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:11 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:40 pm
Josef wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:24 pm

You actually meditate on them in a systematic way in the Mahayana approach. They are spontaneous in Dzogchen.
It is hard for you to see them as a method because you havent trained in them properly.
They are not "forced" to happen. They are cultivated through the point of view and methods in the books I recommended above and by countless teachers regularly.
And, they are the boat. The immeasurable of equanimity, the first one we train in is essentially an immersion in the view. If one is a Dzogchen practitioner that makes this practice the boat.
please, i don want to misc the dzogchen teaching thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

so, in the books and in many of book practitioners of mahayana the four are considered as method, got it, but ¿aren't mind formation?¿they diminish if they are not practiced?

¿what do you mean by meditation? ¿thought?¿action? ¿considerations? ¿belief?

so, ¿why are the four considered method and not indicators of the development of the training?

i'm somehow testing you guy's patience, i know, but believe it or not this is important to me.
You asked how it manifested spontaneously Javier. That's why I mentioned Dzogchen.

You have to read the books and train in the methods if you actually think its important.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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passel
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Re: mental habits

Post by passel » Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:34 pm

You don’t force yourself to feel love, but you can pursue trains of thought and mental imagery that invite the skillful emotions to come.

Tonglen is particularly effective for some people because you’ve got a breath focus to anchor awareness, and the practitioner can use (simple or complex) imagery, or just the actual appearance of a sentient beings irl. Some people like a more analytical style for generating bodhicitta- the Dalai Lama for one uses and teaches those methods a lot. It’s the province of Lojong/ Mind Training.

Longchenpa has some interesting stuff to say in the first volume of Finding Rest- I think it’s based on a pun or a double meaning that doesn’t quite translate. He talks about cultivation of compassion, lovingkindness, etc. via various methods and praises their virtues, but says that without wisdom, they are wonderful, but they are still just the divine abodes (Brahma viharas). Only when they’re engaged from the vantage point that sees doer, doing, and deed as the same do they become the immeasurables.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:11 pm

Josef wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:11 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:40 pm
Josef wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 3:24 pm

You actually meditate on them in a systematic way in the Mahayana approach. They are spontaneous in Dzogchen.
It is hard for you to see them as a method because you havent trained in them properly.
They are not "forced" to happen. They are cultivated through the point of view and methods in the books I recommended above and by countless teachers regularly.
And, they are the boat. The immeasurable of equanimity, the first one we train in is essentially an immersion in the view. If one is a Dzogchen practitioner that makes this practice the boat.
please, i don want to misc the dzogchen teaching thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

so, in the books and in many of book practitioners of mahayana the four are considered as method, got it, but ¿aren't mind formation?¿they diminish if they are not practiced?

¿what do you mean by meditation? ¿thought?¿action? ¿considerations? ¿belief?

so, ¿why are the four considered method and not indicators of the development of the training?

i'm somehow testing you guy's patience, i know, but believe it or not this is important to me.
You asked how it manifested spontaneously Javier. That's why I mentioned Dzogchen.

You have to read the books and train in the methods if you actually think its important.
it is not true that spontaneous realization is exclusive property of dzochen teachings. Nor even self liberation. Realizing emptiness gives the four as ornaments spontaneously, so the hatred behind selfliberates, obviously, and there is no renounciation nor transformation.

i said that because some say "oh you are a dzogchen blah blah blah, the view is superior blah blah blah" etc. and dig a trench, and i really don't agree with that attitude at all.

in fact it is said to be superior because about experiences it is faster, not because a philosophical point of view.

ok that's why :buddha1:

i'm so happy learning throught discussion. i will check what you said.
what are you doing

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Josef
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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 7:11 pm
Josef wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:11 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Aug 26, 2018 4:40 pm


please, i don want to misc the dzogchen teaching thing, it's irrelevant to the discussion.

so, in the books and in many of book practitioners of mahayana the four are considered as method, got it, but ¿aren't mind formation?¿they diminish if they are not practiced?

¿what do you mean by meditation? ¿thought?¿action? ¿considerations? ¿belief?

so, ¿why are the four considered method and not indicators of the development of the training?

i'm somehow testing you guy's patience, i know, but believe it or not this is important to me.
You asked how it manifested spontaneously Javier. That's why I mentioned Dzogchen.

You have to read the books and train in the methods if you actually think its important.
it is not true that spontaneous realization is exclusive property of dzochen teachings. Nor even self liberation. Realizing emptiness gives the four as ornaments spontaneously, so the hatred behind selfliberates, obviously, and there is no renounciation nor transformation.

i said that because some say "oh you are a dzogchen blah blah blah, the view is superior blah blah blah" etc. and dig a trench, and i really don't agree with that attitude at all.

in fact it is said to be superior because about experiences it is faster, not because a philosophical point of view.

ok that's why :buddha1:

i'm so happy learning throught discussion. i will check what you said.
Have you received teaching on the Bodhicaryavatara?
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 965
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Location: Chile

Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:34 pm

Josef wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm

Have you received teaching on the Bodhicaryavatara?
actually no, I have just heared some discourses from HHDL.
what are you doing

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Josef
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Re: mental habits

Post by Josef » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:47 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:34 pm
Josef wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm

Have you received teaching on the Bodhicaryavatara?
actually no, I have just heared some discourses from HHDL.
I can’t recommend it highly enough.
It’s the essence of Mahayana dharma.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 965
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: mental habits

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:43 pm

Josef wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:47 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:34 pm
Josef wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:37 pm

Have you received teaching on the Bodhicaryavatara?
actually no, I have just heared some discourses from HHDL.
I can’t recommend it highly enough.
It’s the essence of Mahayana dharma.
ok, i'll find a teacher. I know a drikung blama, khenpo, very low perfil, may be he can transmit the essence.
what are you doing

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