Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

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Virgo
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:45 pm

kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:40 pm
Virgo wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:22 pm
kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 9:46 pm


Listen... lol.
I really don't have time for this.

Kevin...
Please accept my apologies.
No worries. Try to be more precise with your language.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:49 pm

Virgo wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:45 pm
Try to be more precise with your language.
Wondering... did this get my point across?
... notions of self are an obscuration/limitation of mind. The "self," false as it is, is included in mind. Discursive thoughts are the Dharmakaya.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:17 pm

kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:49 pm
Virgo wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:45 pm
Try to be more precise with your language.
Wondering... did this get my point across?
... notions of self are an obscuration/limitation of mind. The "self," false as it is, is included in mind. Discursive thoughts are the Dharmakaya.
I would definitely agree with the first sentence, but not with the second or third sentences. Perhaps you are saying that dṛiṣṭi, māna, etc. are caitasikas and are classified as nāma, and are therefore mind? That is fine and it shows that ignorance misinterprets things as self. That is quite different than saying self (even though it is false) is mind or is included in mind. As far as the last sentence, that would only apply in very specific contexts. Discursive thoughts almost always have unwholesome roots.

Virgo
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:41 pm

Virgo wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:17 pm
kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:49 pm
Virgo wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 10:45 pm
Try to be more precise with your language.
Wondering... did this get my point across?
... notions of self are an obscuration/limitation of mind. The "self," false as it is, is included in mind. Discursive thoughts are the Dharmakaya.
I would definitely agree with the first sentence, but not with the second or third sentences. Perhaps you are saying that dṛiṣṭi, māna, etc. are caitasikas and are classified as nāma, and are therefore mind? That is fine and it shows that ignorance misinterprets things as self. That is quite different than saying self (even though it is false) is mind or is included in mind. As far as the last sentence, that would only apply in very specific contexts. Discursive thoughts almost always have unwholesome roots.

Virgo
If we're attached to the things that make us suffer, but we know we "shouldn't" be, then we're liable to experience a sense of conflict that acts as an obstacle toward dropping what needs to be dropped... no?

Seeing it all as Buddha's mind would be one way of equalizing such negative feelings and allowing them to come and go without grasping anything.

Lama Surya Das: "Let go and let Buddha do it."
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by smcj » Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:56 pm

At this point in time I understand that...
*****
“Self” would be findable and be unchanging—and therefore it would be inert, limited and unsatisfactory (dukkha). It is inauthentic living.

Your Buddha Nature is limitless, dynamic and free. When unhindered by the illusion of self it is authentic living.

Through Dharma practice we transition from living and experiencing life one way to the other.
*****
The preceding opinion is subject to change without notice.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:23 am

kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:41 pm

Seeing it all as Buddha's mind would be one way of equalizing such negative feelings and allowing them to come and go without grasping anything.
You can tell yourself that but your mind is not Buddha's mind.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:30 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:23 am
kausalya wrote:
Tue Jul 24, 2018 11:41 pm

Seeing it all as Buddha's mind would be one way of equalizing such negative feelings and allowing them to come and go without grasping anything.
You can tell yourself that but your mind is not Buddha's mind.

Kevin...
Not what I tell myself... but we tell ourselves a lot of things that aren't true, to good effect.

All views are wrong views, but some are useful as part of the path, until they can be relinquished.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:42 am

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:30 am
Not what I tell myself... but we tell ourselves a lot of things that aren't true, to good effect.
Yet it's what you just advised? Are you being "mischievous" again?
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:30 am
All views are wrong views, but some are useful as part of the path, until they can be relinquished.
All views are not wrong views. If all views were wrong views then why is Right View a factor of the Noble Eight-Fold Path and why is it clearly defined by Shakyamuni Buddha as well as many other places?

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:46 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:42 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:30 am
Not what I tell myself... but we tell ourselves a lot of things that aren't true, to good effect.
Yet it's what you just advised? Are you being "mischievous" again?
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:30 am
All views are wrong views, but some are useful as part of the path, until they can be relinquished.
All vies are not wrong views. If all views were wrong views then why is Right View a factor of the Noble Eight-Fold Path and why is it clearly defined by Shakyamuni Buddha?

Kevin...
Attaining the middle way is resting in the absence of views/grasping at self/phenomena.

Every teaching is provisional toward this goal:
Diamond Sutra wrote:If you are caught in the idea of a dharma, you are also caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. If you are caught in the idea that there is no dharma, you are still caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. That is why we should not get caught in dharmas or in the idea that dharmas do not exist. This is the hidden meaning when the Tathagata says, ‘Bhikshus, you should know that all of the teachings I give to you are a raft.’ All teachings must be abandoned, not to mention non-teachings.”
I said what I said because it seemed expedient to use those terms. I don't have a stake in a particular description.
Last edited by kausalya on Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:48 am

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:46 am
Every teaching is provisional toward this goal:
Diamond Sutra wrote:If you are caught in the idea of a dharma, you are also caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. If you are caught in the idea that there is no dharma, you are still caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. That is why we should not get caught in dharmas or in the idea that dharmas do not exist. This is the hidden meaning when the Tathagata says, ‘Bhikshus, you should know that all of the teachings I give to you are a raft.’ All teachings must be abandoned, not to mention non-teachings.”
That is not the same thing as saying that all views are wrong views. It is quite different.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

smcj
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by smcj » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:50 am

All views are not wrong views. If all views were wrong views then why is Right View a factor of the Noble Eight-Fold Path and why is it clearly defined by Shakyamuni Buddha as well as many other places?
Right views are like a compass that points to magnetic North. It’s not true North, but it’s good enough for most applications—and a whole lot better than being lost.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:53 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:48 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:46 am
Every teaching is provisional toward this goal:
Diamond Sutra wrote:If you are caught in the idea of a dharma, you are also caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. If you are caught in the idea that there is no dharma, you are still caught in the ideas of a self, a person, a living being, and a life span. That is why we should not get caught in dharmas or in the idea that dharmas do not exist. This is the hidden meaning when the Tathagata says, ‘Bhikshus, you should know that all of the teachings I give to you are a raft.’ All teachings must be abandoned, not to mention non-teachings.”
That is not the same thing as saying that all views are wrong views. It is quite different.

Kevin...
Really? Why would it be necessary to abandon the teachings otherwise?

We all use unique dharma-gates. They aren't to be considered absolute truth.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:53 am

smcj wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:50 am
All views are not wrong views. If all views were wrong views then why is Right View a factor of the Noble Eight-Fold Path and why is it clearly defined by Shakyamuni Buddha as well as many other places?
Right views are like a compass that points to magnetic North. It’s not true North, but it’s good enough for most applications—and a whole lot better than being lost.
Correct, until we start being dogmatic.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:56 am

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:53 am
They aren't to be considered absolute truth.
Who said they were? It doesn't mean they are "wrong views". Right View and Wrong View are very specific terms in Buddhism. You should understand that before you go ahead and incorrectly call all views "wrong views".

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:04 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:56 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:53 am
They aren't to be considered absolute truth.
Who said they were? It doesn't mean they are "wrong views". Right View and Wrong View are very specific terms in Buddhism. You should understand that before you go ahead and incorrectly call all views "wrong views".

Kevin...
Since it's obvious I'm too dumb to use the correct words, would you be kind enough to read what I'm saying, instead?

There is great danger in thinking we can possibly grasp the full meaning of the path. Everyone has something to teach us, if we let them. I'm just trying to make do with the words I have; it doesn't belie my understanding, necessarily, only my ability to communicate. Which is why I'm here, after all.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:08 am

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:04 am
Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:56 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:53 am
They aren't to be considered absolute truth.
Who said they were? It doesn't mean they are "wrong views". Right View and Wrong View are very specific terms in Buddhism. You should understand that before you go ahead and incorrectly call all views "wrong views".

Kevin...
Since it's obvious I'm too dumb to use the correct words, would you be kind enough to read what I'm saying, instead?

There is great danger in thinking we can possibly grasp the full meaning of the path. Everyone has something to teach us, if we let them. I'm just trying to make do with the words I have; it doesn't belie my understanding, necessarily, only my ability to communicate. Which is why I'm here, after all.
What you are saying is either accurate or inaccurate. Where you have said things that are inaccurate people here have painstakingly pointed it out.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:17 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:08 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:04 am
Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:56 am


Who said they were? It doesn't mean they are "wrong views". Right View and Wrong View are very specific terms in Buddhism. You should understand that before you go ahead and incorrectly call all views "wrong views".

Kevin...
Since it's obvious I'm too dumb to use the correct words, would you be kind enough to read what I'm saying, instead?

There is great danger in thinking we can possibly grasp the full meaning of the path. Everyone has something to teach us, if we let them. I'm just trying to make do with the words I have; it doesn't belie my understanding, necessarily, only my ability to communicate. Which is why I'm here, after all.
What you are saying is either accurate or inaccurate. Where you have said things that are inaccurate people here have painstakingly pointed it out.

Kevin...
Accurate, to whom?

Countless factors determine how we express ourselves, and none of it makes a difference unless there's a mind-to-mind connection. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got. The outcome of the interaction isn't in my control.
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by Virgo » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:33 am

kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:17 am
Accurate, to whom?

Countless factors determine how we express ourselves, and none of it makes a difference unless there's a mind-to-mind connection. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got. The outcome of the interaction isn't in my control.
The various inaccurate things you have been saying all day such as, "long life prayers are not about extending the life or health of the lama", "lamas hold sway over death", "all views are wrong views", "self, although false, is included in mind", etc. etc. (paraphrasing). It's really getting old and tired. Thanks.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

kausalya
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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by kausalya » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:36 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:33 am
kausalya wrote:
Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:17 am
Accurate, to whom?

Countless factors determine how we express ourselves, and none of it makes a difference unless there's a mind-to-mind connection. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got. The outcome of the interaction isn't in my control.
The various inaccurate things you have been saying all day such as, "long life prayers are not about extending the life or health of the lama", "lamas hold sway over death", "all views are wrong views", "self, although false, is included in mind", etc. etc. (paraphrasing). It's really getting old and tired. Thanks.

Kevin...
If I've pushed your buttons, I can assure you I didn't set out to do that. Where I've been misunderstood, I've done my best to clarify, but this horse is probably dead.

(I'd rather you didn't quote me out of context, though, come to think of it. My peculiar interpretations are just intended as means to subdue my ego, and don't have to be accepted by anyone else. What I've been trying to say is that "accurate" and "inaccurate" are relative to the mind of the person perceiving them, and "accuracy" is not what I'm going for. Rather, I'm futilely trying to put my experiences into words I don't have meanings for.)
"Open sky does not abide, nor do sentient beings."

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Re: Is karma empty? Is the mind a self?

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:52 am

Great time to lock this one up !

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