Path of Joining and Emptiness

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Seeker12
Posts: 137
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 5:54 pm

Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:56 am

I recall reading somewhere that, I believe, on the latter part of the path of joining - the second of the 5 paths - one believes truly that they have understood emptiness, but this in fact is not the case.

Ring a bell? Anyone know a source?
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

TrimePema
Posts: 70
Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by TrimePema » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:14 am

I've heard that you have a provisional understanding but it is still conceptual in a sense as it is not the direct experience of full emptiness. It is like the direct experience of emptiness upon which concepts are still being imputed... I'm sure what I just said is wrong. But I want to share this link with you as I found it good reading.

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... s-and-path

Bristollad
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am

Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by Bristollad » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:05 pm

This is covered in Chapter 1, topic 3 of the Exalted Knower of All Aspects: Mahayana Path of Preparation in the Abhisamayalamkara.

From course notes:

On the Mahayana path of accumulation of those of definite Mahayana lineage: there is a fully qualified application in complete aspects and wisdoms arisen from meditation observing impermanence, suffering, unattractiveness, etc. However, there is no wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

When the wisdom arisen from meditation observing emptiness is initially generated, someone who is of definite Mahayana lineage transfers to the Mahayana path of preparation.

Note: It is (according to this system) not very common but some hearers and solitary realizers also realize the emptiness of true existence. These may then later enter the Mahayana path and proceed along to Buddhahood. Such practitioners already possess a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness before they enter the Mahayana path of preparation. Therefore, unless we only speak about Bodhisattvas of definite Mahayana lineage, there is no pervasion that the path of preparation starts with the first generation of a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

Three wisdoms
Wisdom arisen from hearing: a wisdom arisen mainly from hearing (or reading) the meaning of the scriptures.
Wisdom arisen from contemplation: a wisdom arisen mainly from the contemplation of the meaning of the scriptures that one has heard (or read) befrore.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: a wisdom arisen mainly in dependence on familiarizing with the understanding that has been generated during contemplation with a mind that is based on a union of calm abiding and special insight.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response:
  • Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a meaning generality of emptiness dawns well, the object and the object-possessor appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
  • Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the meaning-generality of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a meaning-generality during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.

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Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by Malcolm » Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:40 pm

Bristollad wrote:
Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:05 pm
This is covered in Chapter 1, topic 3 of the Exalted Knower of All Aspects: Mahayana Path of Preparation in the Abhisamayalamkara.

From course notes:

On the Mahayana path of accumulation of those of definite Mahayana lineage: there is a fully qualified application in complete aspects and wisdoms arisen from meditation observing impermanence, suffering, unattractiveness, etc. However, there is no wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

When the wisdom arisen from meditation observing emptiness is initially generated, someone who is of definite Mahayana lineage transfers to the Mahayana path of preparation.

Note: It is (according to this system) not very common but some hearers and solitary realizers also realize the emptiness of true existence. These may then later enter the Mahayana path and proceed along to Buddhahood. Such practitioners already possess a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness before they enter the Mahayana path of preparation. Therefore, unless we only speak about Bodhisattvas of definite Mahayana lineage, there is no pervasion that the path of preparation starts with the first generation of a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

Three wisdoms
Wisdom arisen from hearing: a wisdom arisen mainly from hearing (or reading) the meaning of the scriptures.
Wisdom arisen from contemplation: a wisdom arisen mainly from the contemplation of the meaning of the scriptures that one has heard (or read) befrore.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: a wisdom arisen mainly in dependence on familiarizing with the understanding that has been generated during contemplation with a mind that is based on a union of calm abiding and special insight.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response:
  • Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a meaning generality of emptiness dawns well, the object and the object-possessor appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
  • Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the meaning-generality of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a meaning-generality during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.
This needs some modification, mostly because the translated terms are overly literal.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response:
  • Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a generic object of emptiness dawns well, the object and the subject appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
  • Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the generic object of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a generic object during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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