Path of Joining and Emptiness

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ThreeVows
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Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by ThreeVows »

I recall reading somewhere that, I believe, on the latter part of the path of joining - the second of the 5 paths - one believes truly that they have understood emptiness, but this in fact is not the case.

Ring a bell? Anyone know a source?
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
TrimePema
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Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by TrimePema »

I've heard that you have a provisional understanding but it is still conceptual in a sense as it is not the direct experience of full emptiness. It is like the direct experience of emptiness upon which concepts are still being imputed... I'm sure what I just said is wrong. But I want to share this link with you as I found it good reading.

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... s-and-path
Bristollad
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Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by Bristollad »

This is covered in Chapter 1, topic 3 of the Exalted Knower of All Aspects: Mahayana Path of Preparation in the Abhisamayalamkara.

From course notes:

On the Mahayana path of accumulation of those of definite Mahayana lineage: there is a fully qualified application in complete aspects and wisdoms arisen from meditation observing impermanence, suffering, unattractiveness, etc. However, there is no wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

When the wisdom arisen from meditation observing emptiness is initially generated, someone who is of definite Mahayana lineage transfers to the Mahayana path of preparation.

Note: It is (according to this system) not very common but some hearers and solitary realizers also realize the emptiness of true existence. These may then later enter the Mahayana path and proceed along to Buddhahood. Such practitioners already possess a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness before they enter the Mahayana path of preparation. Therefore, unless we only speak about Bodhisattvas of definite Mahayana lineage, there is no pervasion that the path of preparation starts with the first generation of a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

Three wisdoms
Wisdom arisen from hearing: a wisdom arisen mainly from hearing (or reading) the meaning of the scriptures.
Wisdom arisen from contemplation: a wisdom arisen mainly from the contemplation of the meaning of the scriptures that one has heard (or read) befrore.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: a wisdom arisen mainly in dependence on familiarizing with the understanding that has been generated during contemplation with a mind that is based on a union of calm abiding and special insight.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response:
  • Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a meaning generality of emptiness dawns well, the object and the object-possessor appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
  • Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the meaning-generality of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a meaning-generality during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Path of Joining and Emptiness

Post by Malcolm »

Bristollad wrote: Tue Sep 04, 2018 5:05 pm This is covered in Chapter 1, topic 3 of the Exalted Knower of All Aspects: Mahayana Path of Preparation in the Abhisamayalamkara.

From course notes:

On the Mahayana path of accumulation of those of definite Mahayana lineage: there is a fully qualified application in complete aspects and wisdoms arisen from meditation observing impermanence, suffering, unattractiveness, etc. However, there is no wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

When the wisdom arisen from meditation observing emptiness is initially generated, someone who is of definite Mahayana lineage transfers to the Mahayana path of preparation.

Note: It is (according to this system) not very common but some hearers and solitary realizers also realize the emptiness of true existence. These may then later enter the Mahayana path and proceed along to Buddhahood. Such practitioners already possess a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness before they enter the Mahayana path of preparation. Therefore, unless we only speak about Bodhisattvas of definite Mahayana lineage, there is no pervasion that the path of preparation starts with the first generation of a wisdom arisen from meditation that observes emptiness.

Three wisdoms
Wisdom arisen from hearing: a wisdom arisen mainly from hearing (or reading) the meaning of the scriptures.
Wisdom arisen from contemplation: a wisdom arisen mainly from the contemplation of the meaning of the scriptures that one has heard (or read) befrore.
Wisdom arisen from meditation: a wisdom arisen mainly in dependence on familiarizing with the understanding that has been generated during contemplation with a mind that is based on a union of calm abiding and special insight.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response:
  • Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a meaning generality of emptiness dawns well, the object and the object-possessor appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
  • Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the meaning-generality of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a meaning-generality during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.
This needs some modification, mostly because the translated terms are overly literal.

Three types of wisdom observing emptiness
Question: What are the differences between the three types of wisdom observing emptiness?
Response:
  • Wisdom arisen from hearing or wisdom arisen from contemplation: although a generic object of emptiness dawns well, the object and the subject appear as though unrelated due to being together with very coarse dualistic appearances.
  • Wisdom arisen from meditation: although there are dualistic appearances, due to having overcome the coarse dualistic appearances as in the previous two cases, it appears as if one has penetrated the object.
Such a dawning of the generic object of emptiness is described as “dharmata appearing clearly” due to being transformed in a manner of water placed in water.

Nevertheless, this is not a clear appearance that is free from conceptions. Instead, at the time of the Mahayana path of preparation of somebody of definite Mahayana lineage, there is a clear appearance of a generic object during a conceptual realization of emptiness which is a wisdom arisen from meditation; there is not yet a clear appearance of emptiness at that time.
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