Enlightenment

General forum on the teachings of all schools of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. Topics specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Jeff H
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Jeff H » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:53 am
...doesn’t that mean I won’t be interested in having grand parties with the beautiful goddesses and taking a walk with them on their lush gardens ?
You get to set your own priorities. What I'm saying is that the priorities you're clinging to are precisely what I think I need to be liberated from. There's an old joke that if masturbation makes you go blind, I'll just do it till I need glasses. It's like a fish thinking, "doesn't that mean I have to give up that delicious looking worm?"

The wisdom of Buddhism didn't dawn on me till I was 59. I consider you very fortunate to have discovered it early in life. Still, if you aren't ready for it then it isn't for you.

(P.S. See also my signature.)
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

MatthewAngby
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:21 am

Jeff H wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:53 am
...doesn’t that mean I won’t be interested in having grand parties with the beautiful goddesses and taking a walk with them on their lush gardens ?
You get to set your own priorities. What I'm saying is that the priorities you're clinging to are precisely what I think I need to be liberated from. There's an old joke that if masturbation makes you go blind, I'll just do it till I need glasses. It's like a fish thinking, "doesn't that mean I have to give up that delicious looking worm?"

The wisdom of Buddhism didn't dawn on me till I was 59. I consider you very fortunate to have discovered it early in life. Still, if you aren't ready for it then it isn't for you.

(P.S. See also my signature.)
:) . for now, I’ll stull have faith in the three jewels, but probably just aim for a rebirth in the gods. Hopefully I’ll still pratice some recitation of mantras there to not be born in the lower rewalms , and Aspire that I will meet dharma in life after life to help me get to gods realm when My merits are exhausted.

Motova
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Motova » Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:55 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:21 am
Jeff H wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:53 am
...doesn’t that mean I won’t be interested in having grand parties with the beautiful goddesses and taking a walk with them on their lush gardens ?
You get to set your own priorities. What I'm saying is that the priorities you're clinging to are precisely what I think I need to be liberated from. There's an old joke that if masturbation makes you go blind, I'll just do it till I need glasses. It's like a fish thinking, "doesn't that mean I have to give up that delicious looking worm?"

The wisdom of Buddhism didn't dawn on me till I was 59. I consider you very fortunate to have discovered it early in life. Still, if you aren't ready for it then it isn't for you.

(P.S. See also my signature.)
:) . for now, I’ll stull have faith in the three jewels, but probably just aim for a rebirth in the gods. Hopefully I’ll still pratice some recitation of mantras there to not be born in the lower rewalms , and Aspire that I will meet dharma in life after life to help me get to gods realm when My merits are exhausted.
You may practice Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Dzogchen as a deva.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Aryjna » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:32 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:21 am
Jeff H wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 12:53 am
...doesn’t that mean I won’t be interested in having grand parties with the beautiful goddesses and taking a walk with them on their lush gardens ?
You get to set your own priorities. What I'm saying is that the priorities you're clinging to are precisely what I think I need to be liberated from. There's an old joke that if masturbation makes you go blind, I'll just do it till I need glasses. It's like a fish thinking, "doesn't that mean I have to give up that delicious looking worm?"

The wisdom of Buddhism didn't dawn on me till I was 59. I consider you very fortunate to have discovered it early in life. Still, if you aren't ready for it then it isn't for you.

(P.S. See also my signature.)
:) . for now, I’ll stull have faith in the three jewels, but probably just aim for a rebirth in the gods. Hopefully I’ll still pratice some recitation of mantras there to not be born in the lower rewalms , and Aspire that I will meet dharma in life after life to help me get to gods realm when My merits are exhausted.
Or you can aspire to be born in a pure land which is much better in every way.

MatthewAngby
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:13 am

Aryjna wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:32 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:21 am
Jeff H wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:19 am

You get to set your own priorities. What I'm saying is that the priorities you're clinging to are precisely what I think I need to be liberated from. There's an old joke that if masturbation makes you go blind, I'll just do it till I need glasses. It's like a fish thinking, "doesn't that mean I have to give up that delicious looking worm?"

The wisdom of Buddhism didn't dawn on me till I was 59. I consider you very fortunate to have discovered it early in life. Still, if you aren't ready for it then it isn't for you.

(P.S. See also my signature.)
:) . for now, I’ll stull have faith in the three jewels, but probably just aim for a rebirth in the gods. Hopefully I’ll still pratice some recitation of mantras there to not be born in the lower rewalms , and Aspire that I will meet dharma in life after life to help me get to gods realm when My merits are exhausted.
Or you can aspire to be born in a pure land which is much better in every way.
Going beyond a state of happiness, parties or joy? No thanks... it is too much a trade off. To be honest, now I find the world very sad , thus I don’t know what to do but be depressed. I don’t know, It’s all too ... nvm.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:15 am

Believe it or not, it *might* be possible to be happy without parties, although admittedly when you're young it can be hard to imagine. :roll:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

MatthewAngby
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:26 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:15 am
Believe it or not, it *might* be possible to be happy without parties, although admittedly when you're young it can be hard to imagine. :roll:
(( please note that I know I sound to be trolling , but I am not, I am really in a state where I am confused and depressed ))

Yes I know... but I fear it when we go to the state of beyond form and beyond no form. It is really hard to think of it like that... sometimes , won’t the truth hurt?

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Aryjna
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Aryjna » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:45 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:13 am
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:32 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 4:21 am


:) . for now, I’ll stull have faith in the three jewels, but probably just aim for a rebirth in the gods. Hopefully I’ll still pratice some recitation of mantras there to not be born in the lower rewalms , and Aspire that I will meet dharma in life after life to help me get to gods realm when My merits are exhausted.
Or you can aspire to be born in a pure land which is much better in every way.
Going beyond a state of happiness, parties or joy? No thanks... it is too much a trade off. To be honest, now I find the world very sad , thus I don’t know what to do but be depressed. I don’t know, It’s all too ... nvm.
The joy of a pure realm is beyond anything one can imagine in the human realm, except for those who have attained significant realization. Sukhavati is the realm of great bliss after all.

There is no joy in parties, especially at parties with people your age it is a mixture of craving, insecurity, and confusion, blanketed over with the completely made-up idea that it is going to be a lot of fun. The only reason you think there is any joy in that is insufficient examination. Even so, according to the texts on the matter, you can have much better parties in the pure lands.

Marc
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Marc » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:51 am

Hmmm... A little "sales pitch"  for Samyaksambuddha-hood:  

- Complete freedom from cognitives obscurations = Twofold Omniscience:
Knowledge of all phenomenas of the 3 times & 10 directions, both in the multiplicity of their appearance as well as the singleness of their essence (or non-essence if you wish).

- Complete freedom from emotional obscurations = "Adios" defilements & suffering = Great Bliss.

- And as a little extra "on the house", the full range of inconceivable awakened qualities: You name it, we have it !
(Sambhogakaya --> Body of Perfect Enjoyment / Complete Abundance)


This little humor on the side:  
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:28 am
Do we become vegetable state beings in enlightenment , sitting tightly in blank space ?
[...]
Or [we] they see nothing and sort of become blind?
[...]
Can Buddha hear sounds and music? Do they enjoy music or do they become lifeless and emotionless when they hear it?
[...]
Do buddhas have thoughts? If they don’t, then won’t it be like brain dead and like emotionless beings?
Do not pollute your mind with such considerations.

Since descriptions of Awakening will always fall short by a zillion miles, contemplate those descriptions that truly inspire faith and motivation in you.  

Fueling inspiration, enthusiasm and desire (yes, Chanda !) for enlightenment is absolutely vital on the path.  

The raft is only to be abandoned once you have cross to the other shore... Not before.  
Otherwise, you'll drown or simply stay on the wrong / stinky side ;)

Wishing you the best :namaste:
Last edited by Marc on Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Wayfarer
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:56 am

I don't think you're trolling, but it wouldn't hurt to find some other topic to put your mind to. We can't 'imagine enlightenment', but it's not some blank state of nothingness.

:namaste:
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Tsongkhapafan
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:47 am

Dear Matthew,

Don't be depressed, following the path to enlightenment is the best thing we can do with our life and gives it immense meaning.
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:28 am

1) Is there any bliss , joy or enjoyment in enlightenment actually? If not, why do we aim for that?
Enlightenment is the highest bliss, the best happiness there is. The only reason to achieve enlightenment is to benefit each and every living being which we can do effortlessly.

Do we become vegetable state beings in enlightenment , sitting tightly in blank space ?
No, Buddhas are persons with pure minds who spontaneously act to benefit everyone. Their minds are expansive, pervading all objects of knowledge. They know everything of the past, present and future and love each and every living being as a mother loves her only child. They are emotionally very alive.
If everyone became buddhas and there is no more to liberate , can buddhas still do anything at all? Do they finally become static beings who do nothing because they no longer have any need to benefit beings already?
Buddhas are persons, persons create actions and experience effects so the experience of enlightenment is not inert. Who knows what happens when everyone attains enlightenment, but it's impossible for a Buddha not to be happy as they abide eternally in bliss whether they emanate or not.
Can Buddha perceive sentient beings and enviroments or pure lands? Or do they see nothing and sort of become blind?
Buddhas perceive everything as pure. For them, everyone is already enlightened.
Can Buddha hear sounds and music? Do they enjoy music or do they become lifeless and emotionless when they hear it?
A Buddha possesses sense awareness - in fact, each sense can perform the function of all the others, so a Buddha's eye awareness can hear sounds for example. They enjoy everything as the union of great bliss and emptiness. Buddhas enjoy objects of the senses because we make offerings to them and the definition of an offering is anything that delights the Buddhas.
Do buddhas have thoughts? If they don’t, then won’t it be like brain dead and like emotionless beings?
Buddhas do not have conceptual thoughts, but it isn't necessary to have conceptual thoughts in order to experience feelings. Sense awarenesses are non-conceptual and they have associated feelings. They are not brain dead because they don't have brains :tongue: and they experience pure and blissful emotions far superior to anything we experience.

Please don't doubt that enlightenment is the best thing for you and all living beings :twothumbsup:

MatthewAngby
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Sep 06, 2018 9:59 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 8:47 am
Dear Matthew...
But I asked the lamas and they said it is beyond happiness? And what is the bliss they speak of? The feeling of non - feeling and beyond happiness? That sounds scary...

Marc wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:51 am
Hmmm... A little "sales pitch" for Samyaksambuddha-hood...
I thought sambokaya was only for the benefit of beings.. if everyone is liberated, then I think Buddha abandon sambokaya right? And only abide in dharmakaya? So that means they abandon enjoyment body when everyone is liberated? ... :(
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Sep 06, 2018 7:45 am
...
The joy of a pure realm is beyond anything one can imagine in the human realm, except for those who have attained significant realization. Sukhavati is the realm of great bliss after all.

There is no joy in parties, especially at parties with people your age it is a mixture of craving, insecurity, and confusion, blanketed over with the completely made-up idea that it is going to be a lot of fun. The only reason you think there is any joy in that is insufficient examination. Even so, according to the texts on the matter, you can have much better parties in the pure lands.
But is their bliss the bliss of “no-feeling” ? And also... I don’t think when I become Buddha, I will want to have a party in pure land... that means the better parties is like skilful means I think. Like how one master told another that there is a much better tea or something in tusita in order to help the being. Do the bodhisattvas or buddhas even feel like partying when everyone is liberated? If not, I feel extremely sad because then it would seem their every action is for the benefit of beings, and when there is no need to benefit them anymore, their actions stop and they don’t do anything ... at least that’s what I think ..

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Grigoris
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Re: Enlightenment

Post by Grigoris » Thu Sep 06, 2018 10:17 am

I am temporarily locking this topic to give Matthew some time to actually sit, read and digest the information in this thread.

I will open it again in a week from today.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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