What's a "pure tradition"?
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Purity is just an assertion, right?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
I once heard the previous Kalu R say that he saw all the monks and nuns as arhats. Guess he was able to see the purity of the Dharma present even in their lowly Shravakayana level vows.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
No. That’s your own thought.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:26 pm It sounds like you are saying, indirectly, that Buddhas cannot help all living beings because they cannot appear as Spiritual Guides.
Nope, that’s all yours again.How do you know that these flesh and blood teachers are not enlightened, just because they appear as ordinary? This would imply that there is a break in the lineage, because although there might be a lineage of scripture, what you're saying is that there is no lineage of realisation.
No, they saw them in accord with their karmic disposition and level of realisation. When Asanga saw mangy, worm-ridden dog he didn’t pretend to see a Buddha, he saw the dog with all its suffering and developed uncontrived bodhicitta. Only then did he recognise Lord Maitreya. I think this is an important point. Would Asanga have developed bodhicitta if he had not seen the suffering dog? And upon seeing the dog as a suffering being should he have acted to relieve that suffering in accord with its appearance or say to himself actually this dog is a fully enlightened Buddha, I will prostrate and listen to its whimpering, oops I mean teachings?I don't believe that. Even at the time of Buddha, some people saw him, a fully enlightened being, as a very limited being so their perceptions were wrong. You can't believe everything that appears to your mind. Naropa saw Tilopa as an old man who fried fish alive, Asanga saw Buddha Maitreya as a dog, etc. Even in the golden age, people got it wrong!
And is your realisation of death at such a level? Because I’m honest enough with myself to know that even after 30 years of practice, mine isn’t.One of the benefits of death meditation from the lamrim is that it prevents the eight worldly concerns and makes our Dharma practice pure, therefore I would say that if we have a realisation of death, our Dharma practice will be pure.I'm not suggesting otherwise, however there is a big difference between having some purity and being pure. Though I work towards developing perfect uncontrived renunciation and bodhicitta, my aspirations and motivations are not pure. They are mixed with all the mundane thoughts of the eight worldly dharmas.
So you’re saying you have developed great compassion? Otherwise pride is still afflicting you...unless you disagree with this teaching from Maitreya?Again, I would say that if you have love, compassion and humility through exchanging self with others, pride will not be a problem because we're doing our practice for others.According to the Abhisamayalamkara, the hindrance of manifest pride is separated from with the awakening of the Mahayana lineage, with the development of great compassion so this is prior to generating the mind of enlightenment, uncontrived bodhicitta. Manifest pride is having pride in qualities that one does possess... which of us can say that we honestly take no pride in our achievements and abilities? And if we do, then by this measure, we have not even awakened the Mahayana lineage.
You are allowed, I’m just another practitioner with no special qualities.In general, we need a good motivation to create good karma, but due to the power of the Three Jewels, simply beholding Buddha's image is a cause of liberation, even if you look at it with an angry mind. This benefit comes because of the power and purity of the object, not from our motivation. In Heruka Tantra it is said that just by seeing a sincere Heruka practitioner we purify our negativities and attain liberation. We don't need a special motivation because we receive the blessings of Heruka abiding at the heart of that person.We can create pure karma without a pure motivation? Hmmm, here was me thinking that intention was important, not just the activity. So if I give a large donation of money to a hospital in order to further my political standing, I'm creating pure karma and practising perfect generosity? Are you sure that's how it works?
In the example you gave, you're right - if our motive is selfish we do not create good karma, even if our actions looks ostensibly compassionate.
Okay, fair enough but I still disagreeI repeat, claims of pure teachings, pure traditions, pure teachers are for me a red flag. They sit alongside claims of being racially pure as being divorced from reality and a hindrance to being a decent human being never mind a buddhist practitioner.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Or maybe you just didn’t understand the point I was making?smcj wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:28 pmIt does have an answer. Actually it has several answers, depending on who’s doing the answering. So you might want to go over that question with your mentor.Bristollad wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:43 pmIt's a rhetorical question actually. And yes, guru yoga is part of my practice.
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
And do you see all monks and nuns as arhats? Do you think you should pretend you do because he saw them that way?
The antidote—to be free from the suffering of samsara—you need to be free from delusion and karma; you need to be free from ignorance, the root of samsara. So you need to meditate on emptiness. That is what you need. Lama Zopa Rinpoche
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
That is, of course, a form of pure vision.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
I do not see them that way. I do not pretend otherwise.Bristollad wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 12:56 amAnd do you see all monks and nuns as arhats? Do you think you should pretend you do because he saw them that way?
However I have high confidence KR was able to understand what an arhat is, and was able to see how those monks and nuns, by having taken those vows, were already in some small way participating in that result.
You can think of it like looking at a woman that’s been pregnant for 9 days. She’s just as pregnant as a woman that’s been pregnant for 9 months. It’s just not as easily seen.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
I think so, yes.
Specifically, it's an assertion regarding a lack of impurity. Something is pure to the extent it is not impure.
This means that it makes some sense to ask someone who makes an assertion about purity about what impurity might mean.
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Ah, no, not just. OTOH it is sort of "just" a form of upaya.
A better way of thinking about it is the Drikung assertion, bordering on eternalism of sorts, that virtue is real. Deity Yoga, for example, is really pure in terms of accumulating merit and wisdom and purifying the impure aggregates and impure mind of the meditator. I think Garchen Rinpoche went so far as to say that this forumulation is unique to the Drikung (although I have heard similar statements with my Nyingma teachers and in Sakya there is a famous teaching that almost directly says this as well - I will not otherwise discuss this last one publicly -).
Upaya, but higher forms of upaya, that when engaged from the lower paths has a purifying "effect/result". And this is true for all forms of Buddhadharma as well.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
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- Posts: 7885
- Joined: Wed May 29, 2013 6:13 am
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Buddha Nature is purity.
The Dharmakaya is formless purity.
The Sambogakaya and Nirmanakaya are the purity of the Dharmakaya manifesting as enlightened appearances. The Dharmakaya itself, remaining unborn, can never become impure.
Impurity is Buddha Nature manifesting as unawareness and what appears to unawareness. You could say that unawareness misapprehension the appearance of the form kayas as objects. This then snowballs into ego, tainted emotionality based on ego, unskillful actions based on those emotional obscurations, situations and conditions that result from unskillful actions, and the suffering that accompanies those situations.
Pretty standard, right?
The Dharmakaya is formless purity.
The Sambogakaya and Nirmanakaya are the purity of the Dharmakaya manifesting as enlightened appearances. The Dharmakaya itself, remaining unborn, can never become impure.
Impurity is Buddha Nature manifesting as unawareness and what appears to unawareness. You could say that unawareness misapprehension the appearance of the form kayas as objects. This then snowballs into ego, tainted emotionality based on ego, unskillful actions based on those emotional obscurations, situations and conditions that result from unskillful actions, and the suffering that accompanies those situations.
Pretty standard, right?
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Sure, but these are all labels.smcj wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:35 am Buddha Nature is purity.
The Dharmakaya is formless purity.
The Sambogakaya and Nirmanakaya are the purity of the Dharmakaya manifesting as enlightened appearances. The Dharmakaya itself, remaining unborn, can never become impure.
Impurity is Buddha Nature manifesting as unawareness and what appears to unawareness. You could say that unawareness misapprehension the appearance of the form kayas as objects. This then snowballs into ego, tainted emotionality based on ego, unskillful actions based on those emotional obscurations, situations and conditions that result from unskillful actions, and the suffering that accompanies those situations.
Pretty standard, right?
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Do any of those hold that a thing’s purity is distinct from its emptinesskirtu wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 3:26 amAh, no, not just. OTOH it is sort of "just" a form of upaya.
A better way of thinking about it is the Drikung assertion, bordering on eternalism of sorts, that virtue is real. Deity Yoga, for example, is really pure in terms of accumulating merit and wisdom and purifying the impure aggregates and impure mind of the meditator. I think Garchen Rinpoche went so far as to say that this forumulation is unique to the Drikung (although I have heard similar statements with my Nyingma teachers and in Sakya there is a famous teaching that almost directly says this as well - I will not otherwise discuss this last one publicly -).
Upaya, but higher forms of upaya, that when engaged from the lower paths has a purifying "effect/result". And this is true for all forms of Buddhadharma as well.
Kirt
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Think again.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:03 pmI don't think it developed from the Nyingma tradition, it came from Atisha.
The Kadam were founded by Dromton.
* Gardner, Alexander (February 2010). "Dromton Gyelwa Jungne". The Treasury of Lives: Biographies of Himalayan Religious Masters.Dromtönpa was born in Tolung at the beginning of the period of the second propagation of Buddhism in Tibet. "His father was Kushen Yaksherpen (sku gshen yag gsher 'phen) and his mother was Kuoza Lenchikma (khu 'od bza' lan gcig ma)." * His father's title skugshen indicates he was an important figure in the Bon tradition. He began preaching in Tibet in 1042.
Chekawa Yeshe Dorje, one of Dromton's main students, compiler of Atisa's teachings and a prolific writer himself:
So......was born into a family that practiced the Nyingma tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. ... he also sought teachings from other traditions. He received teachings from Rechungpa (one of Milarepa's main disciples) and later from Kadampa Geshes.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
I always found the notion of purity a rather "puritan" idea.
The need to stress the purity of a tradition bears a strong odor of orthodoxy and fundamentalism, to my mind.
The need to stress the purity of a tradition bears a strong odor of orthodoxy and fundamentalism, to my mind.
This is not the wrong life.
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
By innate, I mean the wisdom we have brought with us from our previous lives through spiritual practice; imprints from previous practice.DGA wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:34 pmWhat is innate wisdom in your view? If wisdom is something that is accumulated, how can it be innate?Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 3:07 pmYes, true, so paradoxically we need to find a valid Teacher to start with who can give us valid teachings so that we can develop wisdom. I guess if we find the wrong teacher then we might end up like Angulimala, if we have no innate wisdom from previous lives.
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Buddha's form is the karmic result of pure actions so it is an expression of purity. Also, it has been explained that the actions of making offerings to an image of Buddha is no different from making offerings to the living Buddha, so there's no difference. In the past, practitioners have been able to receive teachings and advice from images of Buddha, for example, Atisha had a small statue of Tara that he used to consult whenever he had to make an important decision. It is only ordinary appearance that means that we view statues as works of art rather than actual Buddhas. As we gain spiritual realisations, how we see the image of Buddha changes, indicating that it is not ordinary. Beholding Buddha's image blesses our mind.DGA wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:41 pmWould you please describe the purity that inheres in an image of Buddha? Is purity a characteristic, a function... or a lack of some characteristic or function? How does purity work in this example, to your mind?Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:26 pm In general, we need a good motivation to create good karma, but due to the power of the Three Jewels, simply beholding Buddha's image is a cause of liberation, even if you look at it with an angry mind. This benefit comes because of the power and purity of the object
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Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
What is the definition of pure? something that is unmixed with anything else. For example, pure water is water without any additives.
Why then is it so difficult to accept the idea of spiritual purity - that pure Buddhist teachings are the teachings of Buddha with nothing added and nothing taken away? It seems odd to me that people in this thread are projecting all kinds of strange labels onto the idea of purity - orthodoxy, puritanism, claims divorced from reality and a hindrance. Don't people want to practice what Buddha taught and not what Buddha didn't teach? In that case, you would need to find a pure tradition, one that teaches and practices Buddha's teachings unmistakenly with lineage blessings. What's so strange about that?
Also, to say that one tradition is pure is not to say that others are impure. It's not asserting some kind of supremacy. As I said earlier there are criteria to establish whether something is pure or not and we can assess a tradition with those criteria from Nalanda monastery.
Why then is it so difficult to accept the idea of spiritual purity - that pure Buddhist teachings are the teachings of Buddha with nothing added and nothing taken away? It seems odd to me that people in this thread are projecting all kinds of strange labels onto the idea of purity - orthodoxy, puritanism, claims divorced from reality and a hindrance. Don't people want to practice what Buddha taught and not what Buddha didn't teach? In that case, you would need to find a pure tradition, one that teaches and practices Buddha's teachings unmistakenly with lineage blessings. What's so strange about that?
Also, to say that one tradition is pure is not to say that others are impure. It's not asserting some kind of supremacy. As I said earlier there are criteria to establish whether something is pure or not and we can assess a tradition with those criteria from Nalanda monastery.
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
It is only ordinary appearance that means that we view Buddhas as "actual", rather than expressions of our own true nature.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:42 amIt is only ordinary appearance that means that we view statues as works of art rather than actual Buddhas.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: What's a "pure tradition"?
Because all dharma are compounded.Tsongkhapafan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:56 amWhy then is it so difficult to accept the idea of spiritual purity - that pure Buddhist teachings are the teachings of Buddha with nothing added and nothing taken away?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde