Travelling to heavens and pure realms

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MatthewAngby
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Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am

Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death ?

I wish to talk with the Highly realised beings to clarify doubts , after all, some of them are known to smack your doubts and wrong views quite effectively and hard.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Josef » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:17 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death ?

I wish to talk with the Highly realised beings to clarify doubts , after all, some of them are known to smack your doubts and wrong views quite effectively and hard.
There are highly realized beings in this realm that can clarify your doubts.
Talking with them is certainly much easier than learning some technique to visit pure lands. Which you would have to learn from one of the realized masters in this realm anyhow if there even is such a thing.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Astus » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death?
Of course there are. Check out the Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Emmet » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:08 am

The only heavens and hells which I am aware of are those which we create within our own minds, believe to be true, and then proceed to inflict upon ourselves and each other.

The ground where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land
And this very body, the body of Buddha.
Hakuin
May all beings plagued with sufferings of the body or mind be quickly freed of their illnesses.
May the frightened cease to be afraid, and may the bound go free.
May the powerless find power,
And may people think of befriending each other.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:42 am

Emmet wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:08 am
The only heavens and hells which I am aware of are those which we create within our own minds, believe to be true, and then proceed to inflict upon ourselves and each other.

The ground where we stand is the Pure Lotus Land
And this very body, the body of Buddha.
Hakuin
:good:
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Aryjna » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:55 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death ?

I wish to talk with the Highly realised beings to clarify doubts , after all, some of them are known to smack your doubts and wrong views quite effectively and hard.
You need certain practice accomplishments at minimum to be able to do that probably. In other words, there is no method that can send you to the pure lands in 5 minutes as far as I know.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Admin_PC » Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:50 pm

Astus wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:10 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death?
Of course there are. Check out the Pratyutpanna Samadhi Sutra.
This ^^

And though the sutra says 7 days, Tendai has a 90-day practice based on this sutra.
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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Sentient Light » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:42 pm

I don't believe the Pratyutpanna Samadhi teaches how to travel to other pure realms; rather, that samadhi seems specific to receiving visions of Buddhas, without coming or going anywhere (and with the Buddhas neither coming nor going anywhere). But obviously strengthening your connection to Amitabha can only help.

The only sure-fire method I know of to enter the heavens is through Thien/zazen, and acquiring the siddhi of the mind-made body (which, in the EBTs, I think roughly correlates with mastering the four dhyanas). Not to say that others don't exist, but this is the only method that I have personally been made aware of in my education.

But really, Pure Land experiences -- dropping off the heavenly experiences, since those seem quite a bit rarer and more difficult to achieve -- seems to simply come as the result of diligent cultivation. Do the practices and really try to remain mindful of the Buddha at all times (beyond just chanting his name, really try to connect with the spirit of what 'Buddha-mindfulness' means). Some individuals may never have Pure Land experiences in their lifetime, and some may have experiences quickly, but the practice is the key either way.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:01 pm

To offer a counterpoint - those that merely recited the name, without any meditative effort of trying "to connect with the spirit of what 'Buddha-mindfulness' means" have had experiences & visions of the Pure Land. This includes Honen and a large number of his top disciples, as well as many followers throughout the centuries. Of course all of these practitioners; including ShanTao (Honen's inspiration), spent a large amount of time with the 3 main Pure Land sutras - all of which offer vivid descriptions & visions of the Pure Land.
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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Sentient Light » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:48 pm

Admin_PC wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:01 pm
To offer a counterpoint - those that merely recited the name, without any meditative effort of trying "to connect with the spirit of what 'Buddha-mindfulness' means" have had experiences & visions of the Pure Land. This includes Honen and a large number of his top disciples, as well as many followers throughout the centuries. Of course all of these practitioners; including ShanTao (Honen's inspiration), spent a large amount of time with the 3 main Pure Land sutras - all of which offer vivid descriptions & visions of the Pure Land.
I would think Honen and his disciples were doing quite a bit more than mindlessly chanting the Buddha's name by rote. I would reckon he was putting everything he had into it, given the strength of what I've seen of his writings. What I meant is that I don't think it helps to be one of those common lay practitioners, lacking understanding of Buddhism, engaging more for cultural reasons than for faith itself, chanting the name without any real connection. Someone who 'merely' chants the name, but is sincere in their faith and practice, is certainly influenced by truly being mindful of the Buddha when reciting.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Admin_PC » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:08 pm

I've never run into those people that chant with no idea what they are chanting or why, which is why it seems so unusual to me.
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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by cjdevries » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:31 pm

This is not easy to write and brings up some difficult emotions. I'm writing to share my experience so that it might help someone if they are considering attempting to spiritually travel. Several years ago, I had a similar idea and asked and prayed to spiritually travel to higher realms; Sukahvati, etc. I had also been reading a lot about inner plane ashrams too; and i would ask to go to these places. I would ask to go there in meditation. Eventually, these prayers and wishes to spiritually travel screwed up my mind and body, and severely depleted my energy. I became quite ill and eventually developed a psychological disorder without previous psychological issues. The main reason this happened is because I was over-zealous and tried to do too many things with my energy. This point is important: I'm ashamed that I took this road, but I even asked to meet with past spiritual masters to learn about the spiritual path. I learned quickly that that was a big no-no. Right away, strange things started happening in my life. I went from feeling light and happy most of the time [and being able to practice qigong and meditation several times a day] to feeling very bewildered and out of sorts. And what started as a simple wish to grow spiritually became an inflated ego very quickly. I believe there is a clear boundary between the living and deceased and unless someone visits you in a dream and makes a connection, it is unwise to try to make a connection on the spiritual level artificially. If you try to make a connection with a higher being without proper guidance, it can potentially push that higher being farther away. I think this is a fundamental law of the spiritual path- that things don't happen unless or until we are ready. Sometimes when we ask for an experience, or desire a experience such as an experience of samadhi or satori, it can actually push the experience away. I don't know why the spiritual path is like this but it probably has something to do with delayed gratification; and so that we don't have an experience until we are fully ready or qualified for it. We can't just wake up one day and decide to contact the Buddha spiritually without following a proper ritual or ceremony that has been handed down in a lineage.

If I had known the consequences, I would have stopped immediately and stayed focused on simple spiritual practices. I learned that it can be enticing to want to travel to other realms, but it can actually put one in harm's way; it can also attract unwanted entities.

When I went to a Tibetan Buddhist physic, she said that my consciousness had gone too far out from my body and I had sent my energies too many places so my consciousness could not come back fully into wholeness. It changed my whole life. When I made these prayers to travel to higher realms I had the intention that I was going to learn about the spiritual path and to unfold my wisdom; I was very focused on gaining spiritual knowledge and understanding. Now I realize that I had a great deal of ignorance and carried many illusions about the spiritual path. What I learned is that the spiritual path has rules and boundaries. I ventured into unfamiliar and potentially dangerous territory and I learned some hard lessons. From my experience, it's not wise to send our energies out or pray to travel spiritually unless we have a qualified spiritual guide; and even then, it's probably not advisable unless there is some clear purpose, such as traveling to inner-plane ashrams to (books by Joshua David Stone have information about travelling to Masters' Ashrams) and even then it should be approached with care. Some people have the wisdom to be able to take on this work skillfully; I learned that i was not ready or mature enough for this and it came at a big cost. I didn't have the wisdom necessary to do this kind of work skillfully.

We only have so much energy or chi and we have to use it wisely. Trying to travel to other planes can deplete chi and can cause physical and/or psychological problems. I caused myself a lot of harm and I want to be able to pass on what I've experienced so that others may avoid what I've experienced.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting
I'm afraid not. Every method I've ever encountered says patience is a fundamental. Wanting to get there will never get you there.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:56 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:35 am
Is there any methods that allows one to travel to the heavens ( Tusita’s inner courts ) or sukhavati without waiting for another 70-80 years before death ?

I wish to talk with the Highly realised beings to clarify doubts , after all, some of them are known to smack your doubts and wrong views quite effectively and hard.
I don't think so, the way this has been explained to me is like tuning into a radio station. Most of us in this life don't even have radios that reach the frequency to chat with these beings, we have to be satisfied with lots of static and an occasional clear message.
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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:50 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 am
Every method I've ever encountered says patience is a fundamental. Wanting to get there will never get you there.
And yet so many teachers say that it is important to have a strong wish to be born in the pure land.

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Astus » Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:47 am

Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 am
Wanting to get there will never get you there.
Virya-paramita is quite essential.

"If one fails to practice vigor, then one will not succeed in bringing forth dhyāna absorption. If one does not bring forth dhyāna absorption, then one cannot even succeed in being reborn in the domain of a Brahma Heaven king. How much the less might one hope to gain realization of the path to buddhahood?"
(Nagarjuna: The Perfection of Vigor, p 6)

"If one exhorts oneself intensely and labors at it diligently,
He may burrow into the ground and be able to reach a spring.
The case with vigor is just the same as this.
There is nothing sought which will not then be gained.
If one is able to accord with Dharma in practicing the Path,
Whoever then is vigorous and thus refrains from indolence
Will definitely succeed in garnering innumerable fruits
And such rewards as these will then never be lost."

(Nagarjuna: The Perfection of Vigor, p 7-8)

Also look into the concept of saṃvega.

"As if struck by a sword, as if his head were on fire, a monk should live the wandering life — mindful — for the abandoning of sensual passion."
(That 1.39, tr Thanissaro)

"Just as one whose clothes or head had caught fire would put forth extraordinary desire, effort, zeal, enthusiasm, indefatigability, mindfulness, and clear comprehension to extinguish [the fire on] his clothes or head, so that bhikkhu should put forth extraordinary desire, effort, zeal, enthusiasm, indefatigability, mindfulness, and clear comprehension to abandon those bad unwholesome qualities."
(AN 6.20, tr Bodhi)

"Short is the life span of human beings,
The good man should disdain it.
One should live like one with head aflame:
There is no avoiding Death's arrival."

(SN 4.9, tr Bodhi)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by SonamTashi » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:24 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:50 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 am
Every method I've ever encountered says patience is a fundamental. Wanting to get there will never get you there.
And yet so many teachers say that it is important to have a strong wish to be born in the pure land.
There is a big difference between trying to go to the Pure Lands in this life and trying to go there after you have died. In this life, our bodies and experiences are very stable and pretty much set. The bardo is more similar to a dream where things are very unstable and change quickly. This opens up the possibility for going to the Pure Lands if you have the aspiration and the merits. However, as unstable as it is described, it still doesn't sound easy by any means, and that's why you have to develop the merits and a strong aspiration in this life, so you'll head off in the right direction.
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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:26 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 7:47 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:32 am
Wanting to get there will never get you there.
Virya-paramita is quite essential.
Which, I'm sure, is quite different to the kind of 'hankering' that I had in mind, based on the OP. I was thinking more of the principle of 'abandoning hope of fruition'.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Astus » Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:26 pm
I was thinking more of the principle of 'abandoning hope of fruition'.
But that is a hope one should not abandon until the fruition is right in one's hands. Without intention there is no action, without action there is no result.
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: Travelling to heavens and pure realms

Post by Wayfarer » Thu Sep 20, 2018 3:49 pm

Astus wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:58 pm
Wayfarer wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 2:26 pm
I was thinking more of the principle of 'abandoning hope of fruition'.
But that is a hope one should not abandon until the fruition is right in one's hands. Without intention there is no action, without action there is no result.
I'm responding to the OP, not 'laying down a law'.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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