Hi, Wayfarer! And thanks, tiger. Good to be here. Red
What is reborn after death?
Re: What is reborn after death?
That's a good question.
From Consciousness, Mind arises "as is", this is why all can be Buddhas. Mind "as is" would be the Subtle Mind. The Subtle Mind has an imprint, which can be altered through Wrong View, when it's altered you get the lower Realms. Mind and Consciousness deal with Quantum Physics. The Coarse Mind is the obstacle that becomes absorbed into the Dream. Reborn after death? nothing, for Consciousness is beyond "Life and Death", only when Samsara ends, does Consciousness end or if you become a Hungry Ghost. One has told a Tenzin that only the Dharma that deals with liberation should be taught, for it can be tested, as long as you test it, should not have to think about what is beyond life.
From Consciousness, Mind arises "as is", this is why all can be Buddhas. Mind "as is" would be the Subtle Mind. The Subtle Mind has an imprint, which can be altered through Wrong View, when it's altered you get the lower Realms. Mind and Consciousness deal with Quantum Physics. The Coarse Mind is the obstacle that becomes absorbed into the Dream. Reborn after death? nothing, for Consciousness is beyond "Life and Death", only when Samsara ends, does Consciousness end or if you become a Hungry Ghost. One has told a Tenzin that only the Dharma that deals with liberation should be taught, for it can be tested, as long as you test it, should not have to think about what is beyond life.
Re: What is reborn after death?
What? A gandharva is a class of beings. Not all sentient beings arise as gandharva. Do you mean as an embryo (Amagarbha)?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
-
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:35 pm
Re: What is reborn after death?
Re: What is reborn after death?
A History of Indian Buddhism from Shakyamuni to Early Mahayana ( Hirakawa Akira & Paul Groner) on page 175 says: "During the period between death and the next birth, a being is said to exist as a spirit composed of subtle types of the five skandhas (aggregates). It is called a gandharva and must wander and search for the place of its next birth.
The Sarvastivadin School recognized the existence of the antarabhava; however, the majority of the schools of Nikaya Buddhism argued against the recognition of the state between lives."
Gandhabba is mentioned in this sense (of an intermediate state being) in the Assalayana sutta.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Re: What is reborn after death?
Re: What is reborn after death?
Oh, I didn't know this. I thought it referred only to the class of beings. Thank you to both of you for the info.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: What is reborn after death?
Did the Buddha give any teachings about “the period between death and the next birth” or about “a spirit composed of subtle types of the five skandhas (aggregates)”?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism
“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
-
- Posts: 2124
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am
Re: What is reborn after death?
Re: What is reborn after death?
I’m asking whether there are suttas or sutras where it is reported that Gautama Buddha gave a teaching on “the period between death and the next birth” or about “a spirit composed of subtle types of the five skandhas (aggregates)”?
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism
“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Re: What is reborn after death?
Whether or not that idea is present in the nikayas, the book which Aemilius referred to is available almost in entirety in Google Books, and the specific page referred to can be found here. It seems a sound scholarly work. From a very quick perusal, what is being presented is the traditional Buddhist cosmology which contains a lot of detail that is not found in the suttas or sutras themselves. And it does note, at the foot of page 176, that not all the schools recognise the existence of an intermediate state, but that the Sarvastivadins did.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Re: What is reborn after death?
I’m not doubting their work. But they don’t offer any references to suttas. They say, “The description of Buddhist cosmology in the following pages is based on the “Chapter on the World” from the Abhidharmakosa.” (page 170)
No sutta/sutra?
I get that great Buddhist teachers followed Gautama Buddha and added to Buddhist teachings. But there is a distinction to a teaching in a sutta or sutra.
No sutta/sutra?
I get that great Buddhist teachers followed Gautama Buddha and added to Buddhist teachings. But there is a distinction to a teaching in a sutta or sutra.
“Enlightenment means to see what harm you are involved in and to renounce it.” David Brazier, The New Buddhism
“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
“The most straightforward advice on awakening enlightened mind is this: practice not causing harm to anyone—yourself or others—and every day, do what you can to be helpful.” Pema Chodron, “What to Do When the Going Gets Rough”
Re: What is reborn after death?
1)There being something that is reborn is the mistaken perception held by all unenlightened beings.
2)There being no birth for any phenomena, objects including self is the view that can be derived through thorough Madhyamika analysis.
why so?
The view of Madhyamika of all phenomena is something akin to the old type of tape based film show which comprise of stationary, unrelated scenes but when move through at a faster speed looks like same objects moving through and forming a stories.
Madhyamika in essence held that all phenomena are mere appearance due to the coming together of causes and conditions similar to the stationary moment in the tape of the old movie film. What follows is even more important which most people miss out mentioning. This mere appearance which appears through the coming of causes and conditions at that moment only "exist" at that moment. The "same object" that seems to continue to "exist" in the next moment is actually not the same object that "existed" in the prior moment. They are the mere appearances which appear due to the coming together of new set of causes and conditions at the later moment.
That, I think, is the gist of it but due to my language ability, I am not able to elaborate more.
-
- Posts: 2124
- Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:32 am
Re: What is reborn after death?
Do you believe Shakyamuni Buddha taught only sutra?clyde wrote: ↑Sat Nov 03, 2018 6:21 am I’m not doubting their work. But they don’t offer any references to suttas. They say, “The description of Buddhist cosmology in the following pages is based on the “Chapter on the World” from the Abhidharmakosa.” (page 170)
No sutta/sutra?
I get that great Buddhist teachers followed Gautama Buddha and added to Buddhist teachings. But there is a distinction to a teaching in a sutta or sutra.
Re: What is reborn after death?
Indeed, the word 'phenomena' actually means 'what appears'. I think you're heading in the right direction, but the difficulty is there are very many subtleties involved in the way the word 'exist' is used in this context. As you know, the 'two extreme views' are 'it is', on the one hand, and 'it is not', on the other. So whilst it's true that 'phenomena don't truly exist', it is also true that they are not simply non-existent. To say they are non-existent is the 'error of nihilism'. Neither truly is, nor truly is not. This provides the key to understanding the common response by Buddhists in answer to the question: 'who is re-born?' They will often reply 'are you the same person you were when you were five?' ('No'.) 'Then are you a different person?' ('No'.) 'It is like that', they will say.WeiHan wrote:Madhyamika in essence held that all phenomena are mere appearance.
To my knowledge, there is not much written in the nikayas themselves (that is, recorded sayings and sutras) on the specifics of re-birth; the teachings themselves are very general (or 'high level' as we would say nowadays). It is in the commentarial tradition and the Abhidharma, and those kinds of texts, in which many of the detailed discussions are found.Clyde wrote:I get that great Buddhist teachers followed Gautama Buddha and added to Buddhist teachings. But there is a distinction to a teaching in a sutta or sutra.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
-
- Posts: 362
- Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 1:35 pm
Re: What is reborn after death?
Yes, in the Garbhavakrantisutra, (the Sutra on entry into the womb).
Re: What is reborn after death?
The "mere appearance" which has no birth, no death, no coming, no going etc.. is not that difficult to understand by using the analogy of dream. In the dream, there may appear to be someone giving birth, someone dying, someone coming from this place to that place etc...but is there really birth taking place? a person moving from one place to another? a person dying? etc..when we wakeup, we know that these appearances just isn't there but yet we can't deny the experience..I think this is how this helps understand the view.Wayfarer wrote: ↑Sat Nov 03, 2018 10:23 amIndeed, the word 'phenomena' actually means 'what appears'. I think you're heading in the right direction, but the difficulty is there are very many subtleties involved in the way the word 'exist' is used in this context. As you know, the 'two extreme views' are 'it is', on the one hand, and 'it is not', on the other. So whilst it's true that 'phenomena don't truly exist', it is also true that they are not simply non-existent. To say they are non-existent is the 'error of nihilism'. Neither truly is, nor truly is not. This provides the key to understanding the common response by Buddhists in answer to the question: 'who is re-born?' They will often reply 'are you the same person you were when you were five?' ('No'.) 'Then are you a different person?' ('No'.) 'It is like that', they will say.WeiHan wrote:Madhyamika in essence held that all phenomena are mere appearance.
Re: What is reborn after death?
The being of the intermediate state is mentioned more than ten times in Abhidharmakosha, and yes at least one sutra is referred to in this context, Saptabhava sutra, which must belong to the Agamas. Sravasti Dhammika mentions a sutta in the Nikayas which says that the attainment of nibbana is possible in the in-between state. ( In his Guide to Buddhism A2Z). So it seems quite evident that it was taught by the Tathgata.
svaha
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.
They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
Sarvē mānavāḥ svatantrāḥ samutpannāḥ vartantē api ca, gauravadr̥śā adhikāradr̥śā ca samānāḥ ēva vartantē. Ētē sarvē cētanā-tarka-śaktibhyāṁ susampannāḥ santi. Api ca, sarvē’pi bandhutva-bhāvanayā parasparaṁ vyavaharantu."
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 1. (in english and sanskrit)
Re: What is reborn after death?
The moment before can never give birth to the later moment because they can never "meet" (i.e meet meaning they appear together at the same time). At a moment ago, this moment has not existed yet, thus we can't talk about birth. Then, as explained above, the two moments can never have a chance to appear concurrently because it will be bizarre. Every possibility is impossible. Thus, there can never be birth taking place. we can't say nothing existed either. The only manner to understand is that the last and present moments are mere appearances based on differing causes and conditions that existed at the two moments separately.
Re: What is reborn after death?
In addition to the Sūtra referenced by humble.student there’s also this one:
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Particularly Birth & Growth of a Being section.