I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

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MatthewAngby
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I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:50 pm

Since there are so many mantras, sutras and tantras to liberate those in the lower realms, I believe a particular Buddha or bodhisattva could manifest in infinite bodies and perform these mantras ( dharanis ) or tantric texts for each individual being to liberate them from their pains ( lower realms ).

If what I say is true, do we really still have to perform Jangchods or funeral rituals for the dead? Since perhaps ...just maybe, a particular Buddha is helping them all with the infinite forms and manifestations of the Buddha?

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:47 pm

If the buddhas and bodhisattvas could do that, wouldn't they have already done that? Surely that has been their aspiration for quite some time now.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:19 pm

Why did the Buddha teach at all, rather than simply cure?
Because liberation is an interactive process between sentient beings and buddhas.
If it could come from sentient beings alone, then samsara wouldn't be self-perpetuating.
If it could come from buddhas alone, then as Thomas says, the buddhas would have freed us all by now.
Amitābha!
OM PADMO USHNISHA VIMALE HUM PHAT (Lotus Pinnacle of Amoghapasha)
OM HANU PHASHA BHARA HE YE SVAHA ("Just by Seeing" Mantra)
AH AAH SHA SA MA HA (Six Syllables of Clairvoyance Mantra)


The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Boomerang
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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Boomerang » Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:54 pm

I ask a similar question once before on this forum. It’s one of those things that isn’t meant to be taken literally. I think of those statements as hyperbolic praise for the holiness of the mantras.

viewtopic.php?t=19839

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Aryjna » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:02 pm

Boomerang wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:54 pm
I ask a similar question once before on this forum. It’s one of those things that isn’t meant to be taken literally. I think of those statements as hyperbolic praise for the holiness of the mantras.

viewtopic.php?t=19839
The question was answered several times in that thread. Liberation on seeing doesn't mean you get liberated immediately. It is a cause, depending on your circumstances it may take a thousand kalpas to come to fruition. Or another mantra that dispels a hundred aeons of negativity, yes but there are another infinite number of hundreds of aeons left.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by smcj » Thu Oct 25, 2018 6:15 pm

I believe a particular Buddha or bodhisattva could manifest in infinite bodies and perform these mantras ( dharanis ) or tantric texts for each individual being to liberate them from their pains ( lower realms ).
I assumed they are already doing that!

My guess is they can’t do it alone.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Sentient Light » Thu Oct 25, 2018 7:44 pm

Funerary rituals are as much--possibly even more--for our benefit as they are for the deceased.
:buddha1: Nam mô A di đà Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Quan Thế Âm Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Đại Thế Chi Bồ Tát :bow:

:buddha1: Nam mô Bổn sư Thích ca mâu ni Phật :buddha1:
:bow: Nam mô Di lặc Bồ tát :bow:
:bow: Nam mô Địa tạng vương Bồ tát :bow:

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:15 pm

Just came across a possibly relevant passage from Shantideva's Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life.
Guarding Introspection wrote:9. If the perfection of generosity makes the world free of poverty, how is it possible that the Protectors of the past acquired it, when the world is still impoverished today?

10. The perfection of generosity is interpreted simply as a state of mind due to the intention of giving away everything, together with the fruits of that, to all people.

11. Where can fish and the like be taken where I could not kill them? When the mind of renunciation is obtained, that is considered the perfection of ethical discipline.

12. How many malicious people, as unending as space, can I kill? When the mind-state of anger is slain, then all enemies are slain.

13. Where would there be enough leather to cover the entire world? The earth is covered over merely with the leather of my sandals.

14. Likewise, I am unable to restrain external phenomena, but I shall restrain my own mind. What need is there to restrain anything else?

...

17. Those who have not cultivated the mind, which is the mystery and the very essence of Dharma, uselessly wander in space in order to eliminate suffering and find happiness.

18. Therefore, I should well control and well guard my mind. Once I have forsaken the vow of guarding the mind, of what use are many vows to me?
Amitābha!
OM PADMO USHNISHA VIMALE HUM PHAT (Lotus Pinnacle of Amoghapasha)
OM HANU PHASHA BHARA HE YE SVAHA ("Just by Seeing" Mantra)
AH AAH SHA SA MA HA (Six Syllables of Clairvoyance Mantra)


The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

MatthewAngby
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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by MatthewAngby » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:31 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:19 pm
Why did the Buddha teach at all, rather than simply cure?
Because liberation is an interactive process between sentient beings and buddhas.
If it could come from sentient beings alone, then samsara wouldn't be self-perpetuating.
If it could come from buddhas alone, then as Thomas says, the buddhas would have freed us all by now.

No I do not mean to free from samsara, I meant to free us from the lower realms only, which I know a lot of mantras and dharanis have the power to do that.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:07 am

I live in an area where there are lots of buzzards who fly around all day, looking for dead things to eat.
If you left a corpse by the side of the road, eventually buzzards would devour it.
Likewise, enough buzzards could probably eat a whole corpse in a day.
But nobody leaves dead people on the side of the road, of course!
They are put in coffins or ash urns, obscured from the beaks of hungry birds.

So, it's like that with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.
They are all around. Even more than buzzards.
But the beings in the lower realms are obscured by their own actions.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by FromTheEarth » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:15 am

In Scroll 88, Nagarjuna's Commentary on the Mahaparamitasutra (Ch. 大智度論, pinyin: Dazhidulun, T. 1509; Skt. Mahāprajñāpāramitāupadeśa), he says:

[0682a22] 問曰:
Question:
[0682a22] 若爾者,不應有三惡道!
...if so (that the Bodhisattvas constantly come to the three lower realms and save the sentient beings there), there should be no lower realms any more.
[0682a22] 答曰:
Answer:
[0682a22] 三惡道眾生無邊無量;菩薩雖無邊無量,眾生倍多無量。菩薩隨眾生可度因緣,若於三惡道中有餘功德者,菩薩則度;重罪者則不見菩薩。菩薩一相見無分別心故,不一一求覓眾生;譬如大赦,及者得脫,不及者則不蒙。
The number of sentient beings in the three lower realms is immeasurable and infinite. Although the number of Bodhisattvas is immeasurable and infinite, the number of sentient beings is way more infinite than that. The Bodhisattvas (can/would only) respond to the occasions where those sentient beings can be relieved. If those in the three lower realms have remaining merits, the Bodhisattvas would relieve them. Those with serious offenses(, however,) will not see the Bodhisattvas. The Bodhisattvas observe (the various phenomena) as equivalent without imposing any distinctions. They do not seek the sentient beings in a personal, individual manner. It is like an amnesty: those who are qualified will be liberated, while those who are not will not be liberated.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by passel » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:23 am

I figure- just try it. There’s time. I mean what’s the alternative, just trying to live your life without bodhicitta? Impossible at this point. Just develop massive skillful means, massive paramitas. People will always be there to discourage you in your practice you just have to ignore them.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:24 am

:good:
Amitābha!
OM PADMO USHNISHA VIMALE HUM PHAT (Lotus Pinnacle of Amoghapasha)
OM HANU PHASHA BHARA HE YE SVAHA ("Just by Seeing" Mantra)
AH AAH SHA SA MA HA (Six Syllables of Clairvoyance Mantra)


The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by MatthewAngby » Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:40 am

FromTheEarth wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:15 am
In Scroll 88, Nagarjuna's Commentary on the Mahaparamitasutra (Ch. 大智度論, pinyin: Dazhidulun, T. 1509; Skt. Mahāprajñāpāramitāupadeśa), he says:

[0682a22] 問曰:
Question:
[0682a22] 若爾者,不應有三惡道!
...if so (that the Bodhisattvas constantly come to the three lower realms and save the sentient beings there), there should be no lower realms any more.
[0682a22] 答曰:
Answer:
[0682a22] 三惡道眾生無邊無量;菩薩雖無邊無量,眾生倍多無量。菩薩隨眾生可度因緣,若於三惡道中有餘功德者,菩薩則度;重罪者則不見菩薩。菩薩一相見無分別心故,不一一求覓眾生;譬如大赦,及者得脫,不及者則不蒙。
The number of sentient beings in the three lower realms is immeasurable and infinite. Although the number of Bodhisattvas is immeasurable and infinite, the number of sentient beings is way more infinite than that. The Bodhisattvas (can/would only) respond to the occasions where those sentient beings can be relieved. If those in the three lower realms have remaining merits, the Bodhisattvas would relieve them. Those with serious offenses(, however,) will not see the Bodhisattvas. The Bodhisattvas observe (the various phenomena) as equivalent without imposing any distinctions. They do not seek the sentient beings in a personal, individual manner. It is like an amnesty: those who are qualified will be liberated, while those who are not will not be liberated.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:07 am
I live in an area where there are lots of buzzards who fly around all day, looking for dead things to eat.
If you left a corpse by the side of the road, eventually buzzards would devour it.
Likewise, enough buzzards could probably eat a whole corpse in a day.
But nobody leaves dead people on the side of the road, of course!
They are put in coffins or ash urns, obscured from the beaks of hungry birds.

So, it's like that with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.
They are all around. Even more than buzzards.
But the beings in the lower realms are obscured by their own actions.

.
.
.

Yes, but it doesn’t matter if beings can see the Buddhas, does it? There is a dharani called stainless light rays which the text said if one recites it 77 times, dedicate to the deceased, the deceased will never be born in lower realms and be born in the upper realms instead. I don’t think that in order to liberate the deceased , the deceased must be able to see buddhas. In fact, maybe the Buddha could just chant 77 times of this dharani and dedicate to a single being and still be able to liberate the deceased without him or her being able to perceive the Buddha.

And... I thought buddhas were so limitless in freedom and wisdom that they could perhaps even manifest in greater numbers than the number of beings in the lower realms?

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by FromTheEarth » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:19 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:40 am
FromTheEarth wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:15 am
In Scroll 88, Nagarjuna's Commentary on the Mahaparamitasutra (Ch. 大智度論, pinyin: Dazhidulun, T. 1509; Skt. Mahāprajñāpāramitāupadeśa), he says:

[0682a22] 問曰:
Question:
[0682a22] 若爾者,不應有三惡道!
...if so (that the Bodhisattvas constantly come to the three lower realms and save the sentient beings there), there should be no lower realms any more.
[0682a22] 答曰:
Answer:
[0682a22] 三惡道眾生無邊無量;菩薩雖無邊無量,眾生倍多無量。菩薩隨眾生可度因緣,若於三惡道中有餘功德者,菩薩則度;重罪者則不見菩薩。菩薩一相見無分別心故,不一一求覓眾生;譬如大赦,及者得脫,不及者則不蒙。
The number of sentient beings in the three lower realms is immeasurable and infinite. Although the number of Bodhisattvas is immeasurable and infinite, the number of sentient beings is way more infinite than that. The Bodhisattvas (can/would only) respond to the occasions where those sentient beings can be relieved. If those in the three lower realms have remaining merits, the Bodhisattvas would relieve them. Those with serious offenses(, however,) will not see the Bodhisattvas. The Bodhisattvas observe (the various phenomena) as equivalent without imposing any distinctions. They do not seek the sentient beings in a personal, individual manner. It is like an amnesty: those who are qualified will be liberated, while those who are not will not be liberated.
PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:07 am
I live in an area where there are lots of buzzards who fly around all day, looking for dead things to eat.
If you left a corpse by the side of the road, eventually buzzards would devour it.
Likewise, enough buzzards could probably eat a whole corpse in a day.
But nobody leaves dead people on the side of the road, of course!
They are put in coffins or ash urns, obscured from the beaks of hungry birds.

So, it's like that with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.
They are all around. Even more than buzzards.
But the beings in the lower realms are obscured by their own actions.

.
.
.

Yes, but it doesn’t matter if beings can see the Buddhas, does it? There is a dharani called stainless light rays which the text said if one recites it 77 times, dedicate to the deceased, the deceased will never be born in lower realms and be born in the upper realms instead. I don’t think that in order to liberate the deceased , the deceased must be able to see buddhas. In fact, maybe the Buddha could just chant 77 times of this dharani and dedicate to a single being and still be able to liberate the deceased without him or her being able to perceive the Buddha.

And... I thought buddhas were so limitless in freedom and wisdom that they could perhaps even manifest in greater numbers than the number of beings in the lower realms?
Another text-dropping from Asanga's Mahāyānasaṃgraha (https://web.archive.org/web/20140821120 ... y_2003.pdf)
"Furthermore, the teachings of all World-honored Buddhas should be interpreted according to their four intentions and four aims.
The four intentions are 1) the intention to make an identification, as for example when it is taught that “At that time I was called Vipashyin, who had attained Buddhahood”; 2) the intention to declare a future event, as for example when it is taught that “If a person recites and bears in mind the name of Bahuratna Buddha, he is assured of attaining supreme awakening without ever again falling back,” or when it is taught that “Only those who have elicited the vow to be born in the Buddha Land of Bliss will be born there”; 3) the intention of indirect reference, as for example when
it is taught that “One can attain full comprehension of the Great Vehicle by serving Buddhas as numerous as the sands of the Ganges River”; and 4) the intention to accord with the dispositions of sentient beings, as for example when the Tathågata first elusively praised the charity of a certain person and then afterward severely censured it [in another person]. As with charity, the same applies to discipline and the other perfections. These are termed the four intentions."

One classical way to interpret the texts like the one you narrated above is to appeal to this "intention to declare a future event." According to such interpretation, the Buddha gives such teachings mainly to the disciples who lack due motivation and would only be motivated by the prospect of imminent benefits. However, the alleged benefits would only be maintained in the future.
Alas, again, this is just one approach to those texts. But it is not an unusual one.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:30 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Thu Oct 25, 2018 2:50 pm
Since there are so many mantras, sutras and tantras to liberate those in the lower realms, I believe a particular Buddha or bodhisattva could manifest in infinite bodies and perform these mantras ( dharanis ) or tantric texts for each individual being to liberate them from their pains ( lower realms ).

If what I say is true, do we really still have to perform Jangchods or funeral rituals for the dead? Since perhaps ...just maybe, a particular Buddha is helping them all with the infinite forms and manifestations of the Buddha?
Samsara and nirvana are nondual. There’s no nirvana without Samsara. There are no higher realms without lower realms. In fact, the devas generate the lower realms when they die. If suddenly there were no loka, then suddenly there would be no Buddhas, either. Samantabhadra’s enlightenment depends upon his past life practice. That’s why it is a wheel and an eternal knot. To liberate all six loka, you destroy those potentials within yourself. You don’t look outside. This is dualistic vision. It’s what the mantras counter.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Astus » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:59 pm

'(To say that) “the Buddha appears in the world and saves sentient beings” are words of the nine-part teachings; they are words of the incomplete teaching. Anger and joy, sickness and medicine, are all oneself; there is no one else. Where is there a Buddha appearing in the world? Where are there sentient beings to be saved? As the Diamond Cutter Scripture says, “In reality, there are no sentient beings who attain extinction and deliverance.”'
(Extensive Recored of Baizhang, in Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 71)
1 Myriad dharmas are only mind.
Mind is unobtainable.
What is there to seek?

2 If the Buddha-Nature is seen,
there will be no seeing of a nature in any thing.

3 Neither cultivation nor seated meditation —
this is the pure Chan of Tathagata.

4 With sudden enlightenment to Tathagata Chan,
the six paramitas and myriad means
are complete within that essence.


1 Huangbo, T2012Ap381c1 2 Nirvana Sutra, T374p521b3; tr. Yamamoto 3 Mazu, X1321p3b23; tr. J. Jia 4 Yongjia, T2014p395c14; tr. from "The Sword of Wisdom"

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:25 pm

Astus wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:59 pm
'(To say that) “the Buddha appears in the world and saves sentient beings” are words of the nine-part teachings; they are words of the incomplete teaching. Anger and joy, sickness and medicine, are all oneself; there is no one else. Where is there a Buddha appearing in the world? Where are there sentient beings to be saved? As the Diamond Cutter Scripture says, “In reality, there are no sentient beings who attain extinction and deliverance.”'
(Extensive Recored of Baizhang, in Sayings and Doings of Pai-Chang, p 71)
:heart:

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by DGA » Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:00 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 3:07 am
I live in an area where there are lots of buzzards who fly around all day, looking for dead things to eat.
If you left a corpse by the side of the road, eventually buzzards would devour it.
Likewise, enough buzzards could probably eat a whole corpse in a day.
But nobody leaves dead people on the side of the road, of course!
They are put in coffins or ash urns, obscured from the beaks of hungry birds.

So, it's like that with Buddhas and Bodhisattvas.
They are all around. Even more than buzzards.
But the beings in the lower realms are obscured by their own actions.

.
.
.
:good:

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Re: I believe the lower realms can be emptied in a day

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:44 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:40 am
I thought buddhas were so limitless in freedom and wisdom that they could perhaps even manifest in greater numbers than the number of beings in the lower realms?
"limitless numbers" in the ordinary sense of quantity doesn't apply.
Even just one buddha is an infinite number of buddhas!
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