What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

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Motova
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What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by Motova » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:10 pm

What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Thank you.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:36 pm

Forsaking vows and thereby beings.
namu amida butsu
OṂ  HRIYADHE  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  HRIDAYA  GARBHE / DZOLA  DHARMADHATU  GARBHE  /  SANG  HARANA  ĀYUḤ  SANGŚHODHAYA  /  PĀPAṂ  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  SAMENDRA  UṢHṆĪKHA  BIMALE  BIŚHUDDHE  SWĀHĀ

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

Motova
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by Motova » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:56 pm

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:36 pm
Forsaking vows and thereby beings.
What do they encounter that defeats them?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Sentient Light
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by Sentient Light » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:03 pm

afaik, regression is only possible for those devotees below the first bhumi, which is effectively those Mahayanists aspiring toward bodhicitta. Otherwise, actions might stall or delay a bodhisattva’s progress, but those bodhisattvas that have realized the first stage abide on the ground of non-retrogression and cannot backslide. Depending on your usage of ‘bodhisattva’, we could argue that a bodhisattva can never backslide.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:47 pm

Motova wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:56 pm
Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:36 pm
Forsaking vows and thereby beings.
What do they encounter that defeats them?
arrogant buddhists in general. nobody want those to be still more arrogant.
what are you doing

Seeker12
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by Seeker12 » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:04 pm

Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:03 pm
afaik, regression is only possible for those devotees below the first bhumi, which is effectively those Mahayanists aspiring toward bodhicitta. Otherwise, actions might stall or delay a bodhisattva’s progress, but those bodhisattvas that have realized the first stage abide on the ground of non-retrogression and cannot backslide. Depending on your usage of ‘bodhisattva’, we could argue that a bodhisattva can never backslide.
I believe this is correct. Generally, I think each 'ground' is basically not possible to go backwards from.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

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kirtu
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by kirtu » Tue Oct 30, 2018 11:38 pm

Well, in Lord of the Dance Chagdud Tulku mentions that until we attain full Buddhahood we can regress (he even said a 10th Bhumi Bodhisattva could regress as did Jigten Sumgon). So it appears to be more than one factor superficially but it boils down to losing Bodhicitta.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:45 pm

Now i think ¿what "regression" means in this question?
what are you doing

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Monlam Tharchin
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:16 pm

It means being reborn in the lower realms and falling away from the Dharma, like a rich person who becomes destitute.
namu amida butsu
OṂ  HRIYADHE  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  HRIDAYA  GARBHE / DZOLA  DHARMADHATU  GARBHE  /  SANG  HARANA  ĀYUḤ  SANGŚHODHAYA  /  PĀPAṂ  SARWA  TATHĀGATA  SAMENDRA  UṢHṆĪKHA  BIMALE  BIŚHUDDHE  SWĀHĀ

The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

PeterC
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by PeterC » Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:56 am

Seeker12 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:04 pm
Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:03 pm
afaik, regression is only possible for those devotees below the first bhumi, which is effectively those Mahayanists aspiring toward bodhicitta. Otherwise, actions might stall or delay a bodhisattva’s progress, but those bodhisattvas that have realized the first stage abide on the ground of non-retrogression and cannot backslide. Depending on your usage of ‘bodhisattva’, we could argue that a bodhisattva can never backslide.
I believe this is correct. Generally, I think each 'ground' is basically not possible to go backwards from.
Not sure that’s true before at least the eighth bhumi

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kirtu
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by kirtu » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:41 am

PeterC wrote:
Sat Nov 03, 2018 5:56 am
Seeker12 wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:04 pm
Sentient Light wrote:
Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:03 pm
afaik, regression is only possible for those devotees below the first bhumi, which is effectively those Mahayanists aspiring toward bodhicitta. Otherwise, actions might stall or delay a bodhisattva’s progress, but those bodhisattvas that have realized the first stage abide on the ground of non-retrogression and cannot backslide. Depending on your usage of ‘bodhisattva’, we could argue that a bodhisattva can never backslide.
I believe this is correct. Generally, I think each 'ground' is basically not possible to go backwards from.
Not sure that’s true before at least the eighth bhumi
Interestingly Kongtrul addresses this in passing in Book 2 Light of the World, Treasury of Knowledge, at the end of Chapter 1 Our Teacher's Path to Awakening. So many of us have been taught that a bodhisattva can't regress once they have reached the first bhumi and others have been taught that non-reversal is assured only after one reaches the eight bhumi (and some of us have been taught both in fact). I think this partially reflects differences in emphasis in different lineages (so for example when I mentioned that Jigten Sumgon had written that even tenth Bhumi Bodhisattvas could regress this was in a discussion of karma and actually the point was made to emphasize the inexorable effects of karma rather than actually being a statement about regression).

Kongtrul says at the end of Book 1, chapter 1 (I don't have a page number since my version of this Kindle book just has locations and no page numbers, the location is 1332/1336)
Bodhisattvas' Level of Capacity
The three points at which bodhisattvas no longer regress- From the instance of the supreme mind of awakening, at awakening's first stage, or at the eight stage- Indicate distinctions of capability; the sublime Sage belongs to the first

A bodhisattva of a high degree of acumen does not regress after the first time he or she develops the supreme mind of awakening; a bodhisattva of average acumen does not regress after attainment of awakening's first stage; one of lesser acumen , at the eight stage. These are the three points [after which bodhisattvas] no longer regress. One teaching even states that those of very low acumen [no longer regress after the attainment of] awakening's ninth stage. These categories are based upon distinctions in capability.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

PeterC
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Re: What causes a Bodhisattva to regress?

Post by PeterC » Sat Nov 03, 2018 9:47 am

Thanks - helpful reference

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