Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

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MatthewAngby
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Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by MatthewAngby » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:27 am

Advantages of having an ego
- you feel proud and happy when you get something you want

- you are able to show off when you’re rich and gain a boost of joy and confidence

- you feel a sense of security

Disadvantages of having an ego
- You take things personally, so you are bound to be in suffering no matter what at times

- You will be sad and depressed when things don’t go your well

- Negative emotions and fear hold you captive

Advantages of egolessness
- You no longer take things personally and as such will be free of suffering when things don’t go your way

- You are more open to infinite possibilities

- negative emotions and fear won’t hold you captive no longer

Disadvantages of egolessness

- you don’t feel happy just because someone did something good for you ( eg. Throwing a surprise party )

- You are not affected by happy events

^ I may be wrong on this so correct me
————

What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego

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Wayfarer
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Re: Advantage and diadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Wayfarer » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:56 am

I’m sure ‘ego-less-ness’ has absolutely no advantages whatever. If you’re trying to get an advantage then ego is definitely the way to go.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:38 am

MatthewAngby wrote:What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego
Ssshhhhhh... Don't let Yamantaka hear you!
(50) And so Yamantaka, spin round with great power the wheel of sharp weapons of good actions now. Three times turn it round, in your wrathful-like aspect your legs set apart for the two grades of truth, with your eyes blazing open for wisdom and means.

(51) Baring your fangs of the four great opponents, devour the foe – our cruel selfish concern! With your powerful mantra of cherishing others, demolish this enemy lurking within!

(52) Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle, we are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done returning upon us; we are out of control. This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us, deceiving ourselves and all others as well capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka, summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

(53) Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves! Trample him, trample him, dance on the head of this treacherous concept of selfish concern! Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

(54) Hum! Hum! Show all your powers, O mighty protector. Dza! Dza! Tie up this enemy; do not let him loose. P'at! P’at! Set us free by your might, O great Lord over Death. Cut! Cut! Break the knot of self-interest that binds us inside.

(55) Appear Yamantaka, O wrathful protector; I have further entreaties to make of you still. This sack of five poisons, mistakes and delusion drags us down in the quicksand of life’s daily toil. Cut it off, cut it off, rip it to shreds!
yamantaka.jpg
yamantaka.jpg (171.91 KiB) Viewed 514 times
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

PeterC
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by PeterC » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:53 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:27 am
What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego
Who is this "I" that you speak of, kemosabe?

MatthewAngby
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by MatthewAngby » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:38 am
MatthewAngby wrote:What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego
Ssshhhhhh... Don't let Yamantaka hear you!
(50) And so Yamantaka, spin round with great power the wheel of sharp weapons of good actions now. Three times turn it round, in your wrathful-like aspect your legs set apart for the two grades of truth, with your eyes blazing open for wisdom and means.

(51) Baring your fangs of the four great opponents, devour the foe – our cruel selfish concern! With your powerful mantra of cherishing others, demolish this enemy lurking within!

(52) Frantically running through life’s tangled jungle, we are chased by sharp weapons of wrongs we have done returning upon us; we are out of control. This sly, deadly villain – the selfishness in us, deceiving ourselves and all others as well capture him, capture him, fierce Yamantaka, summon this enemy, bring him forth now!

(53) Batter him, batter him, rip out the heart of our grasping for ego, our love for ourselves! Trample him, trample him, dance on the head of this treacherous concept of selfish concern! Tear out the heart of this self-centered butcher who slaughters our chance to gain final release!

(54) Hum! Hum! Show all your powers, O mighty protector. Dza! Dza! Tie up this enemy; do not let him loose. P'at! P’at! Set us free by your might, O great Lord over Death. Cut! Cut! Break the knot of self-interest that binds us inside.

(55) Appear Yamantaka, O wrathful protector; I have further entreaties to make of you still. This sack of five poisons, mistakes and delusion drags us down in the quicksand of life’s daily toil. Cut it off, cut it off, rip it to shreds!
yamantaka.jpg
I’ve always quite hated the way they framed the sentences “ Our cruel selfish concerns” and “mantra of cherishing others”. It does seem to train us to be feverishly extremely altruistic( which already proven in the world, is simply a demise ) and to lack any concern for oneself. Expecting answers like where is the “I”? Where is the “oneself”, then I shall also say where is the “others?”. It comes to a point where we fall into the other extreme of “Other-ness” , where the other extreme is called “selfishness”. Even some Tibetan masters I have heard said selfishness is in fact rather logical and “ok”.

We should enjoy oneself and help others at the same time, not falling into the EXTREMES of either ... that’s my take on that.

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:50 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 am
I’ve always quite hated the way they framed the sentences “ Our cruel selfish concerns” and “mantra of cherishing others”. It does seem to train us to be feverishly extremely altruistic( which already proven in the world, is simply a demise ) and to lack any concern for oneself. Expecting answers like where is the “I”? Where is the “oneself”, then I shall also say where is the “others?”. It comes to a point where we fall into the other extreme of “Other-ness” , where the other extreme is called “selfishness”. Even some Tibetan masters I have heard said selfishness is in fact rather logical and “ok”.

We should enjoy oneself and help others at the same time, not falling into the EXTREMES of either ... that’s my take on that.
Wholesome actions executed through the prism of self-cherishing will, at best lead, to a rebirth in a god realm. In which case: why bother practicing in the Mahayana?

"Though one realizes that ultimately
both self and other do not exist,
relatively, think on the great benefit of migrating beings."
Virupa's Treasury of Doha's
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Aryjna » Fri Nov 02, 2018 10:45 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:27 am
Advantages of having an ego
- you feel proud and happy when you get something you want

- you are able to show off when you’re rich and gain a boost of joy and confidence

- you feel a sense of security
If 'having an ego' makes you feel so secure then why are you terrified of the idea of 'not having an ego', that itself appears only because of your self grasping?

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Aryjna
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Aryjna » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:05 am

This sounds like the fear of absolute truth described in various texts:
Words of my perfect teacher wrote: Patience to face the profound truth without fear

Should you receive teachings on the natural state of profound emptiness or, more particularly, on the key points of the Natural Great Perfection beyond all activity and effort, or on the Twelve Vajra Laughs beyond the effects of good and bad actions, or on the Eight Great Marvellous Verses, try to grasp their true meaning without giving rise to negative views.
To have wrong views about these teachings or to criticize them is what is called "the harmful act of rejecting the Dharma." It can cast one into the depths of hell for innumerable kalpas. As one confession text says:

I confess all the times I have committed an act even more pernicious
Than the five acts with immediate retribution: that of rejecting the Dharma.

One day, two Indian monks who had the twelve qualities of full training presented themselves before Atisa. When Atisa explained to them that the ego has no intrinsic existence, they were pleased. But when he explained that phenomena have no intrinsic existence either, they exclaimed, "That's terrifying! Don't say such things!" and when he read the Heart Sutra, they blocked their ears. Atisa, sick at heart, told them, "Unless you train yourselves in the love and compassion of bodhicitta and then develop confidence in the profound teachings, your pure vows alone will lead you nowhere."

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:52 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:27 am

————

What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego
The ego is just a deeply engrained thought.
It is not inherently good or bad. It is just an illusion.
Good luck trying to live in samsara without it. Then unavoidably you arrive to
"egolessness" which most of the time is an even infinitely bigger illusion :mrgreen: :mrgreen: .

Are dreams "good" or "bad"?

tp

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by MatthewAngby » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm

tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:52 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:27 am

————

What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego
The ego is just a deeply engrained thought.
It is not inherently good or bad. It is just an illusion.

Are dreams "good" or "bad"?

tp

Yeah, I sure had some pretty good dreams and bad dreams over the years but that’s subjective in terms of good or bad.

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:50 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 am
I’ve always quite hated the way they framed the sentences “ Our cruel selfish concerns” and “mantra of cherishing others”. It does seem to train us to be feverishly extremely altruistic( which already proven in the world, is simply a demise ) and to lack any concern for oneself. Expecting answers like where is the “I”? Where is the “oneself”, then I shall also say where is the “others?”. It comes to a point where we fall into the other extreme of “Other-ness” , where the other extreme is called “selfishness”. Even some Tibetan masters I have heard said selfishness is in fact rather logical and “ok”.

We should enjoy oneself and help others at the same time, not falling into the EXTREMES of either ... that’s my take on that.
Wholesome actions executed through the prism of self-cherishing will, at best lead, to a rebirth in a god realm. In which case: why bother practicing in the Mahayana?

"Though one realizes that ultimately
both self and other do not exist,
relatively, think on the great benefit of migrating beings."
Virupa's Treasury of Doha's
Why bother practicing Mahayana? Because I wish to help beings , giving them enjoyments...while at the same time, not forsaking myself and enjoying myself. But again, what’s wrong with caring for oneself? ( in terms of Mahayana )

Oh and perhaps the last poem you shown, perhaps I should correct it to “ others and self do not INHERENTLY exist” for people might think of nothingness

tatpurusa
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:59 pm

Don't care for cultivating the ego, neither for terminating it.

Get beyond concepts and both "ego" and "egolessness" become irrelevant.

tp

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:32 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm
Why bother practicing Mahayana? Because I wish to help beings , giving them enjoyments...while at the same time, not forsaking myself and enjoying myself. But again, what’s wrong with caring for oneself? ( in terms of Mahayana )
Because when you practice Mahayana the self should NEVER come before others. ;) Problem with the ego is that if you give it an inch...
Oh and perhaps the last poem you shown, perhaps I should correct it to “ others and self do not INHERENTLY exist” for people might think of nothingness
You think you are in the position to correct a doha of a Mahasiddha translated by a Loppon? Now that is a perfect example of the negative consequences of self-cherishing.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

PeterC
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by PeterC » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:13 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 9:34 am
I’ve always quite hated the way they framed the sentences “ Our cruel selfish concerns” and “mantra of cherishing others”. It does seem to train us to be feverishly extremely altruistic( which already proven in the world, is simply a demise ) and to lack any concern for oneself. Expecting answers like where is the “I”? Where is the “oneself”, then I shall also say where is the “others?”. It comes to a point where we fall into the other extreme of “Other-ness” , where the other extreme is called “selfishness”. Even some Tibetan masters I have heard said selfishness is in fact rather logical and “ok”.

We should enjoy oneself and help others at the same time, not falling into the EXTREMES of either ... that’s my take on that.
You are missing Grigoris’ point, and quite spectacularly so

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:22 pm

Advantage and disadvantage are among the Eight Worldly Concerns. That means they do not lead to lasting happiness for yourself or for others.
To benefit others, you need bodhicitta.
And the beginning of bodhicitta is the precepts.
If you uphold the precepts and keep a regular, simple meditation or mantra practice, you'll bring so much benefit to yourself and others.

I also recommend reading Shantideva.
His Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life (Bodhisattvacharyavatara) has very clear language on bodhicitta, the attitude of aspiring buddhas.
His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama said, "If I have any understanding of compassion and the Bodhisattva path, it all comes from studying this text."
Amitābha!
OM PADMO USHNISHA VIMALE HUM PHAT (Lotus Pinnacle of Amoghapasha)
OM HANU PHASHA BHARA HE YE SVAHA ("Just by Seeing" Mantra)
AH AAH SHA SA MA HA (Six Syllables of Clairvoyance Mantra)


The Buddhas and Bodhisattvas have unobstructed vision in all directions.
Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by justsit » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:38 pm

V 52
Call him, call him, wrathful Yamantaka! Beat him, beat him, pierce the heart of
the enemy, Ego! Roar and thunder on the head of the destroyer, false construction!
Mortally strike at the heart of the butcher, the enemy, Ego

From Dharmaraksita's Wheel of Sharp Weapons

I heard HHDL teach on this topic for 3 days in NYC; he left absolutely no doubt that ego is the enemy. Highly recommend OP read the entire treatise.

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by MatthewAngby » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:44 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:32 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm
Why bother practicing Mahayana? Because I wish to help beings , giving them enjoyments...while at the same time, not forsaking myself and enjoying myself. But again, what’s wrong with caring for oneself? ( in terms of Mahayana )
Because when you practice Mahayana the self should NEVER come before others. ;) Problem with the ego is that if you give it an inch...
Oh and perhaps the last poem you shown, perhaps I should correct it to “ others and self do not INHERENTLY exist” for people might think of nothingness
You think you are in the position to correct a doha of a Mahasiddha translated by a Loppon? Now that is a perfect example of the negative consequences of self-cherishing.
It does seem then Buddhism is teaching us to put ourselves second to the rest of the beings. Well then, this is not really compassionate now , is it? Placing others before yourself...not really compassionate. Placing others and myself as equal...that’s the compassion that is wise.
PeterC wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:13 pm
[quote=MatthewAngby post_id=471310 time=<a href="tel:1541147665">1541147665</a> user_id=10176]
I’ve always quite hated the way they framed the sentences “ Our cruel selfish concerns” and “mantra of cherishing others”. It does seem to train us to be feverishly extremely altruistic( which already proven in the world, is simply a demise ) and to lack any concern for oneself. Expecting answers like where is the “I”? Where is the “oneself”, then I shall also say where is the “others?”. It comes to a point where we fall into the other extreme of “Other-ness” , where the other extreme is called “selfishness”. Even some Tibetan masters I have heard said selfishness is in fact rather logical and “ok”.

We should enjoy oneself and help others at the same time, not falling into the EXTREMES of either ... that’s my take on that.
You are missing Grigoris’ point, and quite spectacularly so
[/quote]

I do think he was telling me of “shedding” the selfish concerns with his wrathful poem. But I’m questioning and evaualating why, so I don’t think I missed his point

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Aryjna
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Aryjna » Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:56 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:44 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:32 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm
Why bother practicing Mahayana? Because I wish to help beings , giving them enjoyments...while at the same time, not forsaking myself and enjoying myself. But again, what’s wrong with caring for oneself? ( in terms of Mahayana )
Because when you practice Mahayana the self should NEVER come before others. ;) Problem with the ego is that if you give it an inch...
Oh and perhaps the last poem you shown, perhaps I should correct it to “ others and self do not INHERENTLY exist” for people might think of nothingness
You think you are in the position to correct a doha of a Mahasiddha translated by a Loppon? Now that is a perfect example of the negative consequences of self-cherishing.
It does seem then Buddhism is teaching us to put ourselves second to the rest of the beings. Well then, this is not really compassionate now , is it? Placing others before yourself...not really compassionate. Placing others and myself as equal...that’s the compassion that is wise.
'Others' are many, you are one. So seeing yourself as equal to others on an individual level you still have to put them first as a whole. Seeing yourself as equal to the totality of all other beings is not exactly the same thing.

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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:10 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 6:44 pm
It does seem then Buddhism is teaching us to put ourselves second to the rest of the beings. Well then, this is not really compassionate now , is it? Placing others before yourself...not really compassionate. Placing others and myself as equal...that’s the compassion that is wise.
So you think you are equal to the totality of infinite sentient beings? That's quite an ego you have there. Do you consider yourself equal to your parents? To your teacher? Then how can you be equal to all sentient beings???

You need to go learn up on Lojong and Tonglen and leave your selfish desire to cultivate siddhi behind you, otherwise you are not heading anywhere pleasant.

Until now we have mainly been putting our self before others, where has that gotten us? It is due to our serving other sentient beings that we have finally had the opportunity to come to the Dharma, let's not blow it!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Aryjna
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by Aryjna » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:10 pm
You need to go learn up on Lojong and Tonglen and leave your selfish desire to cultivate siddhi behind you, otherwise you are not heading anywhere pleasant.
:D

tatpurusa
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Re: Advantage and disadvantage of ego and egolessness

Post by tatpurusa » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:19 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm
tatpurusa wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:52 pm

————
What do you think? Ego or egoless? I still personally choose ego
The ego is just a deeply engrained thought.
It is not inherently good or bad. It is just an illusion.

Are dreams "good" or "bad"?

tp
MatthewAngby wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:54 pm
Yeah, I sure had some pretty good dreams and bad dreams over the years but that’s subjective in terms of good or bad.
This is exactly my point. Ego and egolessness are both just dreams of samsara.
Good or bad? To whom? When? In which circumstances? Absolutely? :shock:
In your original post you ask which is more advantageous. To whom? When? In which circumstances? In absolute terms? :? :?

Both of them are illusions. Karmic dreams. None of them is at least a dream of clarity.

Or do you really dream that "real existing egolessness" is advantageous for the "real existing ego"?
Or that "real existing ego" is advantageous for the "real existing ego"?
Or a "relative existing ego" is advantageous for the "real existing ego"?
Or a "relative existing ego" is advantageous for a "relative existing ego"? Of course in absolute terms... :geek:

tp

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