Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

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Queequeg
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:21 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:05 pm

It has never been demonstrated that consciousness is at all produced by the brain, entirely or otherwise.
Sure it has. But your criteria for understanding this necessarily involves you understanding what yogis say, not what physicalists cannot understand due to the limitations of their methodology.
I think you messed up with the quoting here.
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:05 pm
And it has never been demonstrated otherwise either. Veil of life and death and all that.
I can't decipher what you are trying to say.

It has been demonstrated that consciousness arises from something other than the brain? So I am told.

I find that I honestly can't go beyond what I can observe, and that involves a correspondence between my brain and being conscious. How do I come to that? A lot of it is information I accept on faith in scientific literature. Some of it is direct experience of being knocked out for surgery. From what I hear, the way anesthesia works to disrupt consciousness is compelling. Also, observing the effect of food and drugs. It suggests consciousness is tied in with this body of mine, whether its the brain or maybe my fingernail... :shrug: Does consciousness transcend this body? So I am told; so I accept on faith.
When discussing Buddhist things, it is good to stick with the Buddha's language. The Buddha defined the composition of the universe with six dhātus: earth, water, fire, air, space, and consciousness (vijñāna). He nowhere described some phenomena termed "awareness" as one of the fundamental constituents of the universe. Since awareness is a cognitive term, it must be included within consciousness, and since there is no such a thing as an objectless awareness by definition, it would be best described as a mental factor that accompanies consciousness, for example, as saṃprajāna, a mental factor that accompanies all mindful states: as in mindful and aware.
Well, that is a good general rule to use commonly defined terms. I was originally responding to the assertion that anything but rebirth requires an irrational proposition. I wasn't really trying to engage any particular teaching.

Am I missing something in my observations? Quite possibly. Is what I observe something other than "samprajana" or is it "samprajana". I haven't taken the time to consider it.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Aryjna » Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:58 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:26 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:19 pm
I said that as I see it this is the only condition necessary so that rebirth is what makes sense to me, not that I can prove that conscioussness is ot produced by the brain. But it seems absurd to be that consciousness magically springs up from matter.
Why is that absurd?

Its only absurd because you accept a particular premise.

To note, I'm not trying to prove anything except to assert that rebirth, or continuum or whatever, is an article of faith beyond the veil of birth and death.
Yes, I mean that it seems absurd to me, obviously one may find it reasonable or unreasonable, so it is in a way a matter of faith.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:06 pm

There is a strong correspondence between mind and body.

Is it possible to ascertain how electrical pulses in the brain relate to consciousness? So far I haven't heard anything. I suppose if or when we have the Strange Days head gear tech, we might have something else to say about consciousness.

The veil of birth and death is difficult to get past.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:32 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:57 pm


I find that I honestly can't go beyond what I can observe, and that involves a correspondence between my brain and being conscious. How do I come to that? A lot of it is information I accept on faith in scientific literature. Some of it is direct experience of being knocked out for surgery. From what I hear, the way anesthesia works to disrupt consciousness is compelling.
All anesthesia does is shut down your physical senses. If it disrupted your consciousness, you would die.

Also, observing the effect of food and drugs. It suggests consciousness is tied in with this body of mine, whether its the brain or maybe my fingernail... :shrug: Does consciousness transcend this body? So I am told; so I accept on faith.
Many, if not most, people have trouble distinguishing the experience of their senses from the experience of consciousness itself.

Is what I observe something other than "samprajana" or is it "samprajana". I haven't taken the time to consider it.

This is what Hinayāna style vipaśyāna is for.

On this board, we tend to engage in very informal, imprecise rumination which expresses the fact that perhaps we have not taken to the time to consider the subjects of our discussions well. That is all well and good when it comes to some things, but it is pretty lame when it comes to discussing hard questions of rebirth and consciousness.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:33 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:06 pm
The veil of birth and death is difficult to get past.
This is what samadhi is for.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:32 pm
All anesthesia does is shut down your physical senses. If it disrupted your consciousness, you would die.
That's actually not what it does, as I understand. It is said to disrupt communication in the brain. The senses are working perfectly fine. They're not communicating effectively with parts of the brain that register and interpret the stimuli into experience.

Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:51 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:32 pm
All anesthesia does is shut down your physical senses. If it disrupted your consciousness, you would die.
That's actually not what it does, as I understand. It is said to disrupt communication in the brain. The senses are working perfectly fine. They're not communicating effectively with parts of the brain that register and interpret the stimuli into experience.
Yes, this is what it means "to shut down the senses." In ancient Buddhist anatomy, the brain is understood as the organ which organizes the five senses. Where as consciousness is primarily located (but not restricted to) in the region of the body right below the heart.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:51 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:32 pm
All anesthesia does is shut down your physical senses. If it disrupted your consciousness, you would die.
That's actually not what it does, as I understand. It is said to disrupt communication in the brain. The senses are working perfectly fine. They're not communicating effectively with parts of the brain that register and interpret the stimuli into experience.
Yes, this is what it means "to shut down the senses."
We ought to be precise in our terminology. What I described does not correspond to "shut down"... but no bother.
In ancient Buddhist anatomy, the brain is understood as the organ which organizes the five senses. Where as consciousness is primarily located (but not restricted to) in the region of the body right below the heart.
Yes, so I've heard. I'm one of those sloppy Buddhists who can't discern my head from my heart. I'll take it on faith.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:51 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:48 pm


That's actually not what it does, as I understand. It is said to disrupt communication in the brain. The senses are working perfectly fine. They're not communicating effectively with parts of the brain that register and interpret the stimuli into experience.
Yes, this is what it means "to shut down the senses."
We ought to be precise in our terminology. What I described does not correspond to "shut down"... but no bother.
Sure it does. What is a sense organ that does not sense? If you sever the processor from the camera, the camera may still be on, but it is shutdown in the sense that no image reaches the processor.

In ancient Buddhist anatomy, the brain is understood as the organ which organizes the five senses. Where as consciousness is primarily located (but not restricted to) in the region of the body right below the heart.
Yes, so I've heard. I'm one of those sloppy Buddhists who can't discern my head from my heart. I'll take it on faith.
Well, no, you are just a Mahāyāni who does not understand the formation of the body in Buddhist terms.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:51 pm


Yes, this is what it means "to shut down the senses."
We ought to be precise in our terminology. What I described does not correspond to "shut down"... but no bother.
Sure it does. What is a sense organ that does not sense? If you sever the processor from the camera, the camera may still be on, but it is shutdown in the sense that no image reaches the processor.
No. The senses are working just fine. Shut down would mean that the sense are off.

The problem is the model explaining how anesthesia works and how consciousness arises in Buddhist terms don't line up.

Well, no, you are just a Mahāyāni who does not understand the formation of the body in Buddhist terms.
I don't know what that means. Mahayanists don't understand (because the knowlege is beyond the scope of Mahayana), or I don't understand, happening to be a Mahayanist? If its the former, then that understanding is not on Buddhist terms, but rather some specialized terms. If its the latter, then whats the point in delineating those distinctions?
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:58 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:03 pm


We ought to be precise in our terminology. What I described does not correspond to "shut down"... but no bother.
Sure it does. What is a sense organ that does not sense? If you sever the processor from the camera, the camera may still be on, but it is shutdown in the sense that no image reaches the processor.
No. The senses are working just fine. Shut down would mean that the sense are off.
Do you understand what a sense organ is in Buddhist terms?
Well, no, you are just a Mahāyāni who does not understand the formation of the body in Buddhist terms.
I don't know what that means. Mahayanists don't understand (because the knowlege is beyond the scope of Mahayana), or I don't understand, happening to be a Mahayanist? If its the former, then that understanding is not on Buddhist terms, but rather some specialized terms. If its the latter, then whats the point in delineating those distinctions?

The former.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:58 pm
Do you understand what a sense organ is in Buddhist terms?
I think so.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:34 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:58 pm
Do you understand what a sense organ is in Buddhist terms?
I think so.
Please then explain, because I am not sure you do.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:31 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:58 pm
Do you understand what a sense organ is in Buddhist terms?
I think so.
Please then explain, because I am not sure you do.
The six ayatana - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. They roughly correspond to the physical organs, but the physical organs are not coextensive with the scope of these organs as ayatana. The organs in the ayatana sense transcend the physical organs.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DNS » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:53 am

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:45 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:13 pm
Rebirth is very logical and rational -- if you start with a premise that the world, the cosmos is at least in the final analysis -- just and balanced. I realize that is a tall order, beginning with that premise as many people believe it's all just chaos and random chance; but if you believe otherwise, then rebirth makes complete sense. Otherwise how could the life and death of an infant who dies of SIDS or some other illness, be his whole existence for all eternity?
That's the rub - you have to start with the premise that the world is just and balanced. I observe equilibrium in the world, but not justice. I see no empathy in the glassy stare of snake.

Justice seems like something we seek to satisfy our instinct for fairness - but that's a psychological and by extension social thing.

What was the Buddha's response to the distraught mother who's child died? "I'll bring your child back to life if you can bring me mustard seeds from a household untouched by death."
There is no empathy in the glassy stare of a snake because he is in a woeful realm, that of a lower animal. It is not his only existence though according to Buddhism. He is only seeking survival, mating, and his next meal.

Karma implies a balance and justice and justice is a human-made term; but which came first? Perhaps karma "is what it is" (to use a term young people would say) and then later it is people who refer to it as justice. And then with this balance and equilibrium in the long-run, there would need to be rebirth.

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Meggo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:39 am

Anesthesia works by shutting down consciousness directly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rnx4vf9eeWE

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Grigoris » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:10 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:24 pm
fMRI scans suggest a few interesting points.

*there's a lot more about the brain that scientists do not understand than what they do understand. Often new findings indicate areas of new ignorance (things we now know that we didn't know we didn't know), rather than new knowledge per se.


*Mind (as we know it in the human realm) and brain coincide. Impact the brain and the mind is impacted too (ask Phineas Gage). Impact the mind and the brain is impacted too (learning new things changes the brain). Can't say one is reducible to the other.

*Most claims on the mind-brain speculation in pop culture and pop discourse are reductive, speculative, and overblown.
I don't think that claiming that in humans the brain is linked to consciousness is somehow anti/non- Buddhist. When the Buddha described human existence he spoke of the five skandha and form is one of the five. The brain is part of human form.

In the Greek language the name for the brain (myalo, μυαλό) is phonetically closely related to the word for marrow (myelos, μυελός) . Just some food for thought.

As for consciousness existing without the presence of a brain (and this has been discussed to death a million times): there are many physical beings that do not possess a brain. They have the most rudimentary of central nervous systems imaginable (ganglia), and yet they display sentience. Jellyfish do not even possess ganglia. So...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Queequeg » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:29 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:53 am
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:45 pm
DNS wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:13 pm
Rebirth is very logical and rational -- if you start with a premise that the world, the cosmos is at least in the final analysis -- just and balanced. I realize that is a tall order, beginning with that premise as many people believe it's all just chaos and random chance; but if you believe otherwise, then rebirth makes complete sense. Otherwise how could the life and death of an infant who dies of SIDS or some other illness, be his whole existence for all eternity?
That's the rub - you have to start with the premise that the world is just and balanced. I observe equilibrium in the world, but not justice. I see no empathy in the glassy stare of snake.

Justice seems like something we seek to satisfy our instinct for fairness - but that's a psychological and by extension social thing.

What was the Buddha's response to the distraught mother who's child died? "I'll bring your child back to life if you can bring me mustard seeds from a household untouched by death."
There is no empathy in the glassy stare of a snake because he is in a woeful realm, that of a lower animal. It is not his only existence though according to Buddhism. He is only seeking survival, mating, and his next meal.

Karma implies a balance and justice and justice is a human-made term; but which came first? Perhaps karma "is what it is" (to use a term young people would say) and then later it is people who refer to it as justice. And then with this balance and equilibrium in the long-run, there would need to be rebirth.
Human notions of fairness... I think it's a proclivity for balance. As our mind instinctually seeks patterns. As we seek symmetry. We apply it to the realm of social interaction. This proclivity may lead us to seek balance and symmetry where there is none, or at least that we can comprehend. Those situations make us feel as uneasy as when we see deliberate assymetry.
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:10 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:24 pm
fMRI scans suggest a few interesting points.

*there's a lot more about the brain that scientists do not understand than what they do understand. Often new findings indicate areas of new ignorance (things we now know that we didn't know we didn't know), rather than new knowledge per se.


*Mind (as we know it in the human realm) and brain coincide. Impact the brain and the mind is impacted too (ask Phineas Gage). Impact the mind and the brain is impacted too (learning new things changes the brain). Can't say one is reducible to the other.

*Most claims on the mind-brain speculation in pop culture and pop discourse are reductive, speculative, and overblown.
I don't think that claiming that in humans the brain is linked to consciousness is somehow anti/non- Buddhist. When the Buddha described human existence he spoke of the five skandha and form is one of the five. The brain is part of human form.

In the Greek language the name for the brain (myalo, μυαλό) is phonetically closely related to the word for marrow (myelos, μυελός) . Just some food for thought.

As for consciousness existing without the presence of a brain (and this has been discussed to death a million times): there are many physical beings that do not possess a brain. They have the most rudimentary of central nervous systems imaginable (ganglia), and yet they display sentience. Jellyfish do not even possess ganglia. So...
So...

Just says to me what we think is consciousness might be something else.

As I wrote, something is happening. In my experience it defies labels, or even much characterization at all. Much of the descriptions I take on faith. The evidence we have tells us little but some inferences are possible. I look forward to further advances.

At some point it would be great to have a neuroscientist Yogi who could integrate the new knowledge.
Those who, even with distracted minds,
Entered a stupa compound
And chanted but once, “Namo Buddhaya!”
Have certainly attained the path of the buddhas.

-Lotus Sutra, Expedient Means Chapter

There are beings with little dust in their eyes who are falling away because they do not hear the Dhamma. There will be those who will understand the Dhamma.
-Ayacana Sutta

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Malcolm
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:31 pm

Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:34 pm
Queequeg wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:31 pm


I think so.
Please then explain, because I am not sure you do.
The six ayatana - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind. They roughly correspond to the physical organs, but the physical organs are not coextensive with the scope of these organs as ayatana. The organs in the ayatana sense transcend the physical organs.

Ok, a sense organ, in Sanskrit, is referred to as an indriya (but this term indriya covers more than that, faith, for example, is also an indriya). The six āyatanas you are referring to is another name for the six sense organs in the scheme of the twelve āyatanas.

Of the six indriyas (there are twenty-two, in fact), a number are physical, including the sense organs. These five physical sense organs consist of patches of atoms on the sense structure where they are located. For example, the eye sense organ is a patch of atoms shaped like a flower located at the rear of the eyeball. The mental organ is not material.

When the mental organ operates through the physical senses, it takes the name of the sense organ through which it operates. If that operation is disrupted, that sense organ is not active, and there will be no corresponding sense consciousness. So from a Buddhist point of view, anesthesia, literally "without sensation," shuts down the ability of the mind to function through the sense organs, placing one is an an unconscious state.
Last edited by Malcolm on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

DGA
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Re: Is Anatta incompatible with rebirth?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:36 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:10 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:24 pm
fMRI scans suggest a few interesting points.

*there's a lot more about the brain that scientists do not understand than what they do understand. Often new findings indicate areas of new ignorance (things we now know that we didn't know we didn't know), rather than new knowledge per se.


*Mind (as we know it in the human realm) and brain coincide. Impact the brain and the mind is impacted too (ask Phineas Gage). Impact the mind and the brain is impacted too (learning new things changes the brain). Can't say one is reducible to the other.

*Most claims on the mind-brain speculation in pop culture and pop discourse are reductive, speculative, and overblown.
I don't think that claiming that in humans the brain is linked to consciousness is somehow anti/non- Buddhist. When the Buddha described human existence he spoke of the five skandha and form is one of the five. The brain is part of human form.

In the Greek language the name for the brain (myalo, μυαλό) is phonetically closely related to the word for marrow (myelos, μυελός) . Just some food for thought.

As for consciousness existing without the presence of a brain (and this has been discussed to death a million times): there are many physical beings that do not possess a brain. They have the most rudimentary of central nervous systems imaginable (ganglia), and yet they display sentience. Jellyfish do not even possess ganglia. So...
Yes, I agree (or I think I agree).

We know that mind and body are connected. The nature of that connection is a mystery to many in the English-speaking world. Many claims on that connection are, in my opinion, reductive and misguided (thinking of, say, Daniel Dennett's book Consciousness Explained).

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